Bowie knives?

marcinek said:
The Sandbar knife didn't have one.
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That's right. They believe first bowie was nothing more than a long chef's knife. In fights Mr. Bowie was known to hold his knife in forward grip woth the edge facing the sky. I have heard some speculation that his first Bowie knife had an "upside down" blade so that way he wouldn't have to flip the handle over to fight this way. Without being able to see the originating series of bowie knives this topic will always be shrouded in legend.

Having grown up in New Orleans the Bowie is sort of a special knife culturally to me. Doubly so as my family background is mostly Hungarian and the bowie knife always reminded me of the tip end of sabre turned into a knife.

Many sabres have a sharpened false edge as well. Many people use sabre fencing techniques with larger bowie knives which apparently translate quite well.

Which brings me to my last point, I believe the OP is looking for a "fighting" or combat bowie, rather than a bowie shaped object. There are many knives which we the knife community call bowie, but what we actually mean is "bowie profile." Is the KABAR a bowie? Or is it a straight knife with a clip point? I don't know exactly where to draw the lines.
 
Lapedog said:
That's right. They believe first bowie was nothing more than a long chef's knife. In fights Mr. Bowie was known to hold his knife in forward grip woth the edge facing the sky. I have heard some speculation that his first Bowie knife had an "upside down" blade so that way he wouldn't have to flip the handle over to fight this way. Without being able to see the originating series of bowie knives this topic will always be shrouded in legend.

Having grown up in New Orleans the Bowie is sort of a special knife culturally to me. Doubly so as my family background is mostly Hungarian and the bowie knife always reminded me of the tip end of sabre turned into a knife.

Many sabres have a sharpened false edge as well. Many people use sabre fencing techniques with larger bowie knives which apparently translate quite well.

Which brings me to my last point, I believe the OP is looking for a "fighting" or combat bowie, rather than a bowie shaped object. There are many knives which we the knife community call bowie, but what we actually mean is "bowie profile." Is the KABAR a bowie? Or is it a straight knife with a clip point? I don't know exactly where to draw the lines.
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I didn't know that Bowie was known to fight edge-up. That's cool as hell to know, though.

The KA-BAR never stuck me as bowie-like at all. Looks are wrong (Probably the lack of belly)

Seems like the Bowie deffinition is pretty subjective these days (and historically as well, it seems.).

An aside, I also grew up in New Orleans. Fun times for sure.
 
W. Anderson said:
I didn't know that Bowie was known to fight edge-up. That's cool as hell to know, though.

The KA-BAR never stuck me as bowie-like at all. Looks are wrong (Probably the lack of belly)

Seems like the Bowie deffinition is pretty subjective these days (and historically as well, it seems.).

An aside, I also grew up in New Orleans. Fun times for sure.
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Never knew that about Bowie, but I do know many Confederate bowies were made this way.
Maybe there's a connection there.
 
Another vote for the Ontario SP series. I was looking for a diverse and decent quality large bowie style on a budget. I think I spent $50 or so for my sp5. 10 inches of 1/4 inch thick, USA made, 1095 steel. It came super dull but I sharpened it right up. The sheath is also USA made and very good quality.

I do everything with it, from breaking down firewood to cutting boxes and carpets and all kinds of delimbing and landscaping stuff. It's still light enough to be a serviceable machete.
 
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W. Anderson said:
I didn't know that Bowie was known to fight edge-up. That's cool as hell to know, though.

The KA-BAR never stuck me as bowie-like at all. Looks are wrong (Probably the lack of belly)

Seems like the Bowie deffinition is pretty subjective these days (and historically as well, it seems.).

An aside, I also grew up in New Orleans. Fun times for sure.
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I used to live by Audubon Park before my family moved to English Turn. I was actually down there visiting my old family friends and left in an airplane two days before Katrina hit.
 
The edge up fighting position is why many old, and some more recent, custom bowies have the handle slightly slanted upwards in a "tail high" position compared to the blade: It puts the knife straighter to the forearm when held spine down. This is one design element that is directly associated with Jim Bowie himself...

Lile did this on several of his "traditional" bowies, and even the Rambo "Mission" is slightly but definitely "tail high", while the "First Blood" is not. This, as far as I can see, is not replicated in the subsequent "Next Gen." "Mission" copies, maybe even including the "dot" Lile Missions. The "Mission" was more closely derived from Lile's earlier "traditional" bowies, in terms of design, than the "First Blood" was...

There is another reason, in my opinion, for the "tail high" handle: Bowies in those days were carried slipped inside the pants, kidney position edge down, with sheaths that were just blade covers with a peg: In this way the hardest part to hide is the butt end of the knife poking out "on the side", from the knife being slightly slanted by walking: Having the handle "tail high" to the blade meant the handle was closer to the vertical when carried: Even a very slight angle change can make a large difference in the extent of the handle "poking"... This of course does not apply if the sheath carries the knife edge up for an edge up presentation. But for utility, edge up is rather "odd", while turning the knife over after pulling it out was probably not seen as a significantly slower for fighting: I would guess the "upturned" handle's biggest benefit was when carried edge down, because the poking of clothing is not just an issue of concealment: It moves the knife around, and greatly reduces comfort if it causes "shifting".

I personally don't like the way a "tail high" handle looks, but even on the very small extent it is done on the Lile "Mission", the difference is surprisingly large when compared to a similar knife carried in the same way...

Gaston
 
Lapedog said:
That's right. They believe first bowie was nothing more than a long chef's knife. In fights Mr. Bowie was known to hold his knife in forward grip woth the edge facing the sky. I have heard some speculation that his first Bowie knife had an "upside down" blade so that way he wouldn't have to flip the handle over to fight this way. Without being able to see the originating series of bowie knives this topic will always be shrouded in legend.
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I certainly agree with the chef's knife/punal/Mediterranean dagger theory.

Your claim about the way Bowie held his knife is news to me. It seems odd that, by your own claims, that we will never know what the sandbar knife looked like, yet we somehow know how he held it.

As for not being able to see the originating series of Bowie knives..that's just not true. While there is no definitive evidence of which was the sandbar knife (it was the Forrest knife), Bowies knives are historically well documented.

Here..read this: http://www.sonsofdewittcolony.org//adp/history/bios/bowie/knife_like_bowies.html
 
marcinek said:
I certainly agree with the chef's knife/punal/Mediterranean dagger theory.

Your claim about the way Bowie held his knife is news to me. It seems odd that, by your own claims, that we will never know what the sandbar knife looked like, yet we somehow know how he held it.

As for not being able to see the originating series of Bowie knives..that's just not true. While there is no definitive evidence of which was the sandbar knife (it was the Forrest knife), Bowies knives are historically well documented.

Here..read this: http://www.sonsofdewittcolony.org//adp/history/bios/bowie/knife_like_bowies.html
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I meant Bowie's actual knives were not well documented, not that historical early bowie knives are not.

The reason we know he held the knife with the edge facing the sky in the fight is because Bowie had been shot and run through already and was on his butt apparently. When one of his assailants leaned in for the kill Bowie apparently stabbed him through the navel and then cut upwards towards his chest.

I had heard that from some Bowie knife museum who had some videos online. I'll see if I can find the relevant video.
 
Lapedog said:
I meant Bowie's actual knives were not well documented, not that historical early bowie knives are not.

The reason we know he held the knife with the edge facing the sky in the fight is because Bowie had been shot and run through already and was on his butt apparently. When one of his assailants leaned in for the kill Bowie apparently stabbed him through the navel and then cut upwards towards his chest.

I had heard that from some Bowie knife museum who had some videos online. I'll see if I can find the relevant video.
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In fact, Bowies actual knives are well documented and the exact details of the sandbar knife are not.

You should take a look at Bernard Levine's take on Bowie era "Bowie knives" in his Guide to Knives and Their Values. I's excellent and thorough and from a guy whop knows more about knife history than the rest of us put together! :thumbsup:

As far as "some Bowie knife museum".. they often have a financial or "state's" interest in having the "real, original" Bowie. A lot of the "history" is just states making claim to being the source of the original Bowie knife.

A lot of crap, myth, and hype to wade through...I do think BRL has done a great job. I trust that guy implicitly. No real "agenda."
 
And, of course, all the crap, myth, and hype is irrelevant is one is looking for either

1) a Iron Mistress type Bowie, or
2) a "modern" Bowie ala the classic Kabar

And there is absolutely nothing wrong with either.

I have hear it said, and it makes sense, that the Randall #1 might be the "modern" Bowie and the knife Bowie might most easily recognize.

I can live with that.
 
On the super cheap end, you might try a M-Tech 151, which is their Trailmaster copy. It gets under $20 sometimes, and a fair number of folks have been happy with it. The next jump would be to the Ontario Spec Plus line, the next jump would be a jump to a Western W-49 or maybe the Browning Crowell / Baker 580, then on to the Cold Steel line. Most are nowhere near historically accurate, but what can you do :)?

Over the years, I've found most folks don't want a historically based Bowie. They want a Iron Mistress type or a camp knife. If you handed them a real historical knife, you'd hear that they were lighter, differently balanced, and not what they expected from most people I bet. Generally, they're around 7 - 10" long, 1/4 - 5/16" thick, and 1 1/4 - 1 1/2" in width bladewise for many older ones. Lots of flat grinds and tapering. There are outliers like the California knives, Southern D guards, and singular knives here and there, but many fall into the range listed.

Hanwei used to actually do some nice historical knives years ago.

Here are a couple of good video showing what they were actually using back then -


.
 
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tltt said:
Over the years, I've found most folks don't want an historically based Bowie. They want a Iron Mistress type or a camp knife. If you handed them a real historical knife, you'd hear that they were lighter, differently balanced, and not what they expected from most people I bet.
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That's actually always been the case! "Bowie knives" at the time sold like titanium framelock flippers do now. The knife geeks had to have them. Couldn't make them fast enough.

And who wants a super cool uber tactical fighting knife that looks like the one they have in the kitchen? Nobody ever!

Then around 1900 the "outdoors" movement really kicked in and people needed knives for it. So they made Bowie fighters smaller and called them "outdoors/camp" knives. Which doesn't make sense unless your outdoor activity is stabbing dudes. Eventually Will&Finck, Marbles et al started making knives designed specifically for outdoor recreation.

Which sorta gets us to today where a "Bowie" is just any large fixed blade, maybe with a clip point.
 
...and then there's Thorp who pulled the "Iron Mistress" design out of thin air in about 1940 and claimed that it was what the original Bowie knife looked like.

Flayderman says:

"There is little doubt but that [Thorp's Bowie Knife] is responsible, more than any other source, for perpetrating misinformation about the subject." "Among the most annoying faults with Bowie Knife was the author's marked tendency to alter direct, cited quotes from nineteenth century sources."

And Thorp's "design" is where the Randall Smithsoniam and Thorp Bowie designs came from.
 
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ItsKYRO said:
After two trips to Smoky Mountain Knife Works in two days it got me thinking about a combat bowie knife....

It would be used more like a last resort if there was a break in and no way to get to a gun for whatever reason, and also im not completely sure but i think bowies can be carried in Ohio?

Whats your thoughts? Recommendations?
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Back to the original question. My suggestion? Your chef's knife in the kitchen.

It is 1) actually historically accurate, and 2) incredibly effective in the kitchen and out. (Kitchen chef's knives have probably taken out wayyy more people than "Bowie" knives have)

I'd go with a Victorinox Fibrox 10 inch Pro.
 
marcinek said:
And, of course, all the crap, myth, and hype is irrelevant is one is looking for either

1) a Iron Mistress type Bowie, or
2) a "modern" Bowie ala the classic Kabar

And there is absolutely nothing wrong with either.

I have hear it said, and it makes sense, that the Randall #1 might be the "modern" Bowie and the knife Bowie might most easily recognize.

I can live with that.
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If I remember correctly there was also several documentaries I had seen mentioning holding the knife edge up. In a documentary about the Alamo one Joe Musso explains about how the bowie knives were often used edge up with false edge foward. I have heard from many sources that to their knowledge Jim Bowie delivered that final blown belly button to sternum. I had heard that he held it edge up so many times and places I had assumed it was widely believed everyone. Of course no one really knows.
 
Did Bowie call his knives "Bowie knives?" If not, perhaps one should consider a Bowie knife to be something inspired by Bowie, or a tribute to the legend.
 
W. Anderson said:
Did Bowie call his knives "Bowie knives?" If not, perhaps one should consider a Bowie knife to be something inspired by Bowie, or a tribute to the legend.
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Good point. Even Bowie era "Bowie knives" had little to do with the knives Bowie owned and used.
 
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