Bowie knives?

[marcinek]

one of the most iconic and representative Bowies IMO is one that was listed on the exchange yesterday, designed by one of the masters of the Bowie trend, ...

The "Bowie trend" that has been going on since 1827?

It's a nice modern Bowie.

 

[tltt]

If I remember correctly there was also several documentaries I had seen mentioning holding the knife edge up. In a documentary about the Alamo one Joe Musso explains about how the bowie knives were often used edge up with false edge foward. I have heard from many sources that to their knowledge Jim Bowie delivered that final blown belly button to sternum. I had heard that he held it edge up so many times and places I had assumed it was widely believed everyone. Of course no one really knows.

The Edge Up thing is an interesting bit of knife fight lore that comes and goes. One knife folks say feels good edge up knife is the famous Bowie Number 1, with its oddly canted blade -

.

Granted, you wouldn't need a special knife for it, just one with a plainer handle. I doubt we'll ever really know.

Edge up also was popular during WWII, one of Randall's first fighters was made specifically with that in mind, the Zacharias fighter. It was the father of the Model #1, and the ability to go edge up was the reason why it and the #1 have the groove on the spine. They theory back then was that most men can deliver more power pulling upward, so one of the big things was to start in low, and sort off upper cut the knife into the enemy -

.

The fellow who runs the "Randall Made Knife" website (where that pic is from) also had WWII news video of a large group of soldiers training edge up while Randall talked about knives. I wish I saved it before he took it down.

So edge up certainly had its followers, the only question is how much is fact vs influence from fiction.

Bit of an off topic and rambling post, but it is an interesting part of knife lore .

 

[Lapedog]

The Edge Up thing is an interesting bit of knife fight lore that comes and goes. One knife folks say feels good edge up knife is the famous Bowie Number 1, with its oddly canted blade -

.

Granted, you wouldn't need a special knife for it, just one with a plainer handle. I doubt we'll ever really know.

Edge up also was popular during WWII, one of Randall's first fighters was made specifically with that in mind, the Zacharias fighter. It was the father of the Model #1, and the ability to go edge up was the reason why it and the #1 have the groove on the spine. They theory back then was that most men can deliver more power pulling upward, so one of the big things was to start in low, and sort off upper cut the knife into the enemy -

.

The fellow who runs the "Randall Made Knife" website (where that pic is from) also had WWII news video of a large group of soldiers training edge up while Randall talked about knives. I wish I saved it before he took it down.

So edge up certainly had its followers, the only question is how much is fact vs influence from fiction.

Bit of an off topic and rambling post, but it is an interesting part of knife lore .

Yes, as I said we will never actually know. It is exactly that, a cool story told by several speculators. One video I saw was the guy talking about that very Bowie #1 knife and as you said him claiming the canted handle was designed for this.

I think part of the reason the legend has staying power is people often hear about "backcuts" in Bowie related terminology. Also as stated before the false edge has a part to play. I have seen people claim that a set of bowies evolved to be used edge up with sharpened swedge forward and the brass spine to catch the enemy's edge and protect your spine.

Ultimately to me a good Bowie is like a bisexual, it swings both ways.

 

[SpySmasher]

A bare bones Colt 1911 is around 40 ounces loaded: Those are never called "wall hangers"...

I can only speak for myself but when I am training knife-fighting with my 1911 I find the weight a bit prohibitive. When you have to move the blade quickly less weight is better, at least in my experience.

Not to mention that the 1911 is a terrible slicer. Edge like a brick.

 

[bearfacedkiller]

The backcut is interesting. It comes from saber fighting (which was done edge down) the backcut was used for a few reasons. One was to make quick cuts to the opponents hand/wrist/forearm that was holding his weapon and the other was to make cuts while keeping your own hand protected by the guard on your own saber. In many ways it was a cut that kept you from exposing yourself during the cut.

This explains the finer defensive points of the backcut well. It is a lot about not geting cut and not exposing yourself. He also explains the saber grip vs the hammer grip.

I have read that Bowie adapted sword fighting techniques into his knife fighting which is why he used the backcut. The Bowie knife also has an interesting history as it evolved to be used in the off hand with a revolver in the strong hand. I have read that Von Tempsky trained his soldiers that way.

 

[GB940Rookie]

The Sandbar knife didn't have one.

Late to the party but I noticed in the description and pictures of the Forrest Bowie, it did have a slight clip point. Can't find any info on whether it was sharpened or not. Would love to see it in person.

 

[marcinek]

Late to the party but I noticed in the description and pictures of the Forrest Bowie, it did have a slight clip point. Can't find any info on whether it was sharpened or not. Would love to see it in person.

Not seeing it.

 

[GB940Rookie]

Not seeing it.

About 8" to the tip. Also there is a video that shows the knife decently. I'm so tech ignorant I can't post a link but here is YouTube description.
knives of note the quest for the original Bowie knife James and Rezin Bowie display okca 2015
Darryl Payne

Almost looks like the entire top could be swedged.

 

[marcinek]

Not seeing the clip point. It might have a sharpened swedge, but then why hold it edge up?

 

[GB940Rookie]

Not seeing it.

Not seeing the clip point. It might have a sharpened swedge, but then why hold it edge up?

I'm not sure about the whole edge up thing I was mostly just replying to the swedge/clip point idea.

I agree with you that the Forrest knife seems to be, if not the Sandbar knife, a proper Bowie knife representation. Just wish I could see it in person

I know it's a merry go round, but I love these conversations

 

[marcinek]

I mean it might have a gentle clip...I just dont see it.

And it would be neat to see it and other Bowie-owned knives in person!

 

[cbach8tw]

I have always liked the overall design of the Forrest knife, there was a good article not long ago in a major knife magazine about the overall straight back design or large butcher knife shape the original sandbar knife may have looked like. There were comparisons to the Forrest knife and others like the Searles bowies where the Searles are the fancy higher end versions, mostly straight back and overall shape.

 

[D R E]

Here are 3 different styles but all considered Bowie Knives:

 

[Makael]

Thise old Bowies were USA made. All modern USA Bowies honor the originals. Such a sweet design.

RUANA AND RANDALL go way back.

 

[Dr Heelhook]

That's right. They believe first bowie was nothing more than a long chef's knife. In fights Mr. Bowie was known to hold his knife in forward grip woth the edge facing the sky. I have heard some speculation that his first Bowie knife had an "upside down" blade so that way he wouldn't have to flip the handle over to fight this way. Without being able to see the originating series of bowie knives this topic will always be shrouded in legend.

Having grown up in New Orleans the Bowie is sort of a special knife culturally to me. Doubly so as my family background is mostly Hungarian and the bowie knife always reminded me of the tip end of sabre turned into a knife.

Many sabres have a sharpened false edge as well. Many people use sabre fencing techniques with larger bowie knives which apparently translate quite well.

Which brings me to my last point, I believe the OP is looking for a "fighting" or combat bowie, rather than a bowie shaped object. There are many knives which we the knife community call bowie, but what we actually mean is "bowie profile." Is the KABAR a bowie? Or is it a straight knife with a clip point? I don't know exactly where to draw the lines.

For anyone who didn't know, The "Bowie no 1" knife of the Historic Arkansas Museum, one out of two knives accredited to blacksmith James Black who presumably made Bowie's Sandbar knife has a handle very well suited for holding in an edge up grip:

 

[SCWillson]

I get the sharpened swedge thing for backcuts, but what is the tactical/fighting purpose of the clip point, as opposed to a drop point or straight spine? The only thing that comes to mind is to lighten the blade to increase speed.

(Personally, I don't like the look of clip points on any knife, not just bowies.)

 

[BBuser]

An interesting aspect to their popularity long ago was it was a big thing to get a Bowie for the young guys going off to the War Between the States. But apparently as they experienced those long military marches with a ton of weight they were soon ditching them along the road.

 

[GB940Rookie]

I get the sharpened swedge thing for backcuts, but what is the tactical/fighting purpose of the clip point, as opposed to a drop point or straight spine? The only thing that comes to mind is to lighten the blade to increase speed.

(Personally, I don't like the look of clip points on any knife, not just bowies.)

Here's my take on that one. The clip allows the knife maker to drop the point so that it is in line with the centerline of the knife for a more positive thrust and allows the sharpened point to be convexed, or at least less obtuse than a sharpened swedge on a drop point, like a dagger tip. It makes a more devastating cut. Kinda like hawkbill designs but not as exaggerated.

I believe Bill Bagwell described it as increasing the pounds per square inch slashing force delivered by the tip in the back cut.

 

[marcinek]

For anyone who didn't know, The "Bowie no 1" knife of the Historic Arkansas Museum, one out of two knives accredited to blacksmith James Black who presumably made Bowie's Sandbar knife

If you believe Thorp and/or an unsubstantiated, confused story by the Governor of Arkansas...which most, who do actually know, don't.

Read Levine or Flayderman, or even this...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowie_knife

 

[John A. Larsen]

Some years back I met a former Finnish soldier who had fought in the War of Continuation. He told me about taking back a village from the Russians and having to clear the cellar of a large building. They did not know who or what was in the cellar so went in with their puukkos out, "With the edge up, like they teach you in the Boy Scouts". Seems like if true the Finnish Boy Scout jamborees are more interesting than here in the USA. John