Boxes and papers

[thawk]

Nice job on the photos Hedger. If I were you, I'd consider the boxes are Schrade, but anything is possible. I do know there were bound to be variations in boxes, and it has been mentioned that boxcars and truckloads of parts, boxes, and bling were part of the end of days auction. I think parts, boxes and bling are still being matched up. My thoughts are on the boxes, that someone that dishonest would direct their efforts elsewhere, but that is a gut feeling with no facts. My 2 cents worth.

 

[Larry303]

I wouldn't make a statement unless I could back it up...I doubt I will be apologising to anyone as requested....
As Perry Mason would say....my Case <or Box> rests your honor.......
Where do I start with the differences as there are so many....compared to the other boxes from the identical period and even the same year...years...
Whats holding up the Yellow Schrade banners in all the photos including the end of boxes on "some"...bottom of Schrade banner on end of boxes is yellow on "some".....look at Made in U.S.A......look at the yellow Schrade Bench Made Collection printing on "some"...look at the background wood grain color on "some"......you can smell the fresh printing on "some"......
It provides a "Service" for which I am grateful..my Mint knives have somewhere to sleep comfortably....Hoo Roo

 

[Larry303]

few more photos...how come some banners arent attached to their poles on "some"?...and how come the outline of the banner is black on "some" and white on the ones I previously owned?

 

[gbuskirk]

The likely use for these boxes is for passing off Taylor-made knives from China as old-stock USA-made knives, by photographing the knife with the box and omitting any mention of age or origin. I will take the warning and look closer at auction sales I'm tempted to bid on.

 

[Larry303]

I think its someone recognizing a collecting "need" and fulfilling it with some creativity...I had no idea they were 'like they are'....when I purchased them..and it is mis-representation if they are as I suspect...and I believe there are others...one of the downsides of this Schrade forum is the lack/stifling of freedom of reasonable speech like say Bernard Levines forum where someone can be fore warned as a collector if we learn something...short of PM's to all members what could I say when I realized?....I've had all the warnings in the past, dont need another and may even predictably get one for this...caveat emptor!..Hoo Roo.

 

[Larry303]

...rest assured these were made at the Schrade Factory at Ellenville prior to closing the seller states...boxes and paperwork. I show photos of the paperwork compared to my prior purchased paperwork which I know is genuine and had it for years since 2003. They are different color, different size...and there must be some legal problem with re-producing the Schrade Guarantee....so more creativity has been shown with leaving it out more or less....photos show actual changes.......make up your own opinions.....Hoo Roo

 

[thawk]

I see nothing in presenting facts regarding your owned examples of possible reproduction of materials that would warrant a warning from the moderators. If I am correct Larry, I understand you to say you purchased the suspect 49er boxes post 2004. Were they purchased as flattened "right off the press" unused product that never held a knife? The differences in the examples you have presented are certainly worthy of close scrutiny.

 

[delmas2nd]

is it just me or is there not a glaring omission in the new boxes and that is the American Flag with "Made in U.S.A." underneath it. the new ones do not have this and Schrade was very proud of that fact as we all are and since miss the brand so much.

 

[Larry303]

Last date of the 49er production was 1979. All the flyers for the series show the Schrade banners attached to their poles at two points..none of the "recent" boxes show any attachment...all the originals do.....have you got a box?...have a look....why would Schrade have had new boxes printed for a series that ended 31 years ago....why would the guarantee be left off all the fresh paperwork..it was in the middle of the wording on the originals..have a look at my examples.
The 9OT Golden Claw last date of production was 1997...first 1995.....so how many excess boxes would they have for a 2/3 year run only......were there changes in the boxes in that 2/3 year period?...if they are 13 years old why the fresh printing smells on Hedgers and mine...I have knife series from 2004 that have no printing smells.....lots of questions....are there any valid answers?....just adding another dimension to collecting pre 2004 Schrade Ellenville knives,as if the waters were not already murky enough.....be careful if you want the real deal...Hoo Roo.

 

[Codger_64]

A quick check shows that there is a print shop in Ellenville, Stedner Printing, 135 Canal Street. So it is possible that someone contracted these to be printed there (or elsewhere) recently.

I have been seeing reprints of the insert papers with "NIB" knives for quite some time now. These reprints invariably use white paper stock instead of the yellowish "parchment" colored stock of the originals. One might look very closely and see a difference in printing technology as well as text differences. Beyond this, it is doubtful that the original printing plates exist. So entirely new artwork would have to be created.

Reproduced boxes are a new one on me, but I am not in the least surprised. We all know that correct, complete knife assemblies new in the original boxes with original papers and plastic almost always bring more than the knives alone, or a knife with sheath, or a knife and sheath in a ratty box or even a good box with no papers.

How many sellers are participating in this newest scamming? Do they know each other? Is Stewart aware of this illegal use of his trademarks, or has he licensed them to someone for the purpose of their production of ersatz boxes and papers?

 

[Hedger]

From my standpoint as a collector I prefer original. A seller will want boxes to get top dollar. You are right to say there could be an infringement on copyright. This is an interesting find and I thought I was correct in thinking these were copied boxes. The seller in my opinion has lost my trust but others may view it as a service to a collector. I don't agree there. I have seen so many mismatched boxes especially with the LB8 series and it is rare to find an LB8 in new condition with the box it came in w/o pitting esp in a brown box. I'd liketo know the truth on this one. I'm glad other collectors have chimed in on this and noticed what I noticed. Thank you.

 

[Codger_64]

I've asked someone who has a personal (business) stake in this. We shall see if/when I receive an answer to my inquiry.

 

[thawk]

Interesting comment Michael regarding the parchment color. In the "Sharp Idea" series, I notice the Old Timer boxes indeed contain light "parchment" color info papers, kind of matching the box color scheme. The Uncle Henry "Sharp Idea" boxes also match up, and those info papers are a light "slate" color. Correct me if I'm wrong, but after the "Sharp Idea" series, the next series, with a darker blue striped box, and finally the blue, white, gray box series did have white inserted information papers. I have not checked a lot, and I do not have a large number of knives with the two newer series.

There was an intermediate series too, boxes with the same color as "Sharp Idea", where that logo was dropped from the corner, and replaced on the side with a SCHRADE TOUGH logo. Not sure of paper colors on those ones.

While I'm not completely sold on determination of valid versus bogus boxes, nothing would surprise me. Box matchup errors run rampant, I saw one recently where genuine bone Old Timer Classic was paired with a blue Bear & Sons old fashioned replica box. With a BIN over $100.00...

Agree with Hedger, there are a lot of mismatched LB8 and LB7 examples, sometimes with older knife, newer box.

 

[Codger_64]

I've asked someone who has a personal (business) stake in this. We shall see if/when I receive an answer to my inquiry.

The people with whom I consulted are not concerned and are of the opinion that the boxes and papers are remnants of NOS (new old stock) packaging sold during the auction in October 2004. Some of it may well be, as I originally stated. Some of it, IMHO, obviously is not, as shown in the above examples.

 

[Larry303]

Well done Michael,
We can do no more than alert collectors to the fact there is BOGUS material that has recently been printed and the full extent will eventually be revealed as shock and horror follow realization......all part of the Schrade collecting experience....there is much out there in my opinion.....and for the record why would Schrade alter paperwork to remove their Guarantee in a 35 year old product as I have depicted above...when in the ensuing 35 years Schrade never once removed their Guarantee......if you PRINT paperwork and I dont mean photostat why wouldnt one also print boxes to suit their 'needs'......
This thread should be made a sticky in my opinion so it can be constantly referred to in the future as the question is invariably asked and judging by certain feedback there are readers here that should be double checking their boxes and paperwork......unless like the Emperors new clothes we 'want' to believe rather than what we actually see, and 'the mind is made up dont confuse me with facts' take over......Fact:..paperwork is being re-produced/printed <not photostated> as above with no Guarantee/altered wording from the originals produced 35 years ago.....the rest is still supposition......Hoo Roo...
P.S. Brown Box 858OT <on the fold> boxes disappeared from the Bay coinciding with my first posting on this...858OT Lumberjack last date of production was 1986.....good of Schrade to keep boxes in the old brown box style with previous branding on the fold for 20 years wasn't it..waiting for the clearance sale in 2004 so collectors could have new boxes...hell the Wall collection of which I have a number, never even came with original boxes..cos they didnt keep them for themselves...on display..I'm even reliably informed Schrade never even kept some of their previous style knives and had to source some of them from collectors when they were setting up their Wall collection......go figure......?
Supply and demand means our existing genuine paperwork has been de-valued as well.........

 

[Hedger]

I figured they would not admit it and if they can't say yes or no then it is definitely a no as in not genuine. Looks like the knife hobby is going the way of coin collecting. If it aint slabbed no one will trust it. And dealers will only buy slabbed knives to sell at over inflated prices. I was afraid this would happen. Takes the joy out of it. All that is left that you can buy new is Chinese junk. I thank you for the info Codger. My box will be going into the fireplace tonight.

 

[Codger_64]

Send it to me. I am not a duck expert, but this walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and smells of duckie-doo. I ain't done just yet.

 

[Hedger]

OK, I'll send it out. PM me your address.

 

[Larry303]

Good on you Hedger..you care about the future of genuine pre 2004 Schrade collecting.
I repeat there are several sellers selling bogus material with likely genuine knives. I have many originals obtained well before closure and am in a position to compare with current 'offerings'....
Because of rules about not linking to current listings <and I am one of the greatest supporters of that rule for different reasons> the only way you will be able to monitor is as listings are WITHDRAWN from sale <or changed> which will inevitably happen now this has been revealed,and I believe has already started....how many Schrade collectors/sellers dont look at this forum or have associates who do?.....buyers including myself have been ripped off by greed... and yours and mine existing genuine collections are being de-valued by their actions.. make no mistake about that...:thumbdn:. Hoo Roo

 

[Codger_64]

Ended listings may also be posted.

Hedger, you don't have PM enabled. I sent you a VM with my email address.