Boycott Singapore

Since we're getting into semantics now, let's take a moment to review some of the terms used. First, justice:

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/justice

Next, murder:

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/murder

Going by these definitions, I believe that murder is an inappropriate term ("the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought"), and that justice ("the maintenance or administration of what is just especially by the impartial adjustment of conflicting claims or the assignment of merited rewards or punishments", " the quality of being just, impartial, or fair", "the quality of conforming to law", "conformity to truth, fact, or reason") was indeed served.

You are entitled to your opinions, of course.
 
That came off a bit harsh and I apologize for that.

The point that I'm trying to make is that while we may criticize Singapore on the nature of their laws, we can't level the same criticisms at how they apply them. If I were to get caught smuggling drugs in Singapore I have no doubt that they'd execute me as well...or anyone else, for that matter. I may not agree with their laws but if they're applied fairly in accordance with the will of their citizens, they are indeed being just.

Van was justly executed, not unjustly murdered. There is a considerable difference.
 
Um, Dave? According to your definitions, I definitely agree murder was not done, but *also according to your definitions*, neither was justice. There was no "impartial adjustment of conflicting claims". There was only judgement, which is not necessarily the same thing.

John
 
How so? Several of the definitions seem to apply in this case. (But really, one should be enough, no?)
 
There was no "adjustment". There was only application of a law.

Also by (at least some of) your definitions, Germans turning in or participating in executing Jews in WWII would be "just", since they were "conforming to law". I will agree with you that the application was impartial...is that a good thing? How does one classify an unjust law?

This is, after all, the same country that will give you a year in jail for selling or smuggling gum into the country. Does Singapore have a right to enforce this law in their own country? Sure, but it's just one example of a law that is malum prohibitum. In other words, something that society has deemed a transgression even though the action is not inherently wrong (malum in se).

I am against mandated minimum sentences in the US. The reason is, of course, that it removes discretion from the judges. Thus, it is entirely possible that the same sentence could be applied for a relatively minor offense and a much more serious one.

John
 
I hope john piper's contribution turns out to be more than hit and run.

I strongly disagree with his characterization of "statistical evidence" -- there is no such thing. Inference, perhaps, but not evidence.

I also disagree with his denigration of Singapore's sovereignty and judicial philosophy as having been directed by US policy after the Vietnam war.

I disagree with the sophistry surrounding the concept of justice. The law was clear, the law was known, the law provided for lesser penalties for lesser levels of offense. The criminal chose to violate that law at its most severe level of punishment.

I congratulate Singaporean justice because its law and administration are not fuzzy and do not lead people into thinking they can negotiate bad behavior -- as Van's brother seems to have been able to do in Australia.
 
Obviously, there is no world-wide agreement on what constitutes just punishment for crime.

Most of the "civilized world" -- especially European nations -- regards the U.S. as a land of barbarity because we have capital punishment.

We look aghast at nations that cut off hands for petty theft and execute for drug offenses.

Convicted mass murders from the "former Yugoslavia" are sentenced to twelve (whole) years imprisonment.
 
I agree that the law was followed, and I understand and agree in principle with the necessity of consistency, but I would also take strong issue with calling my lack of agreement sophistry. I strive to be fair even when I disagree.

By your evident standards, Mr. Hausman, any clear law can be just. THAT isn't sophistry, but it isn't correct, either- and one of Jewish descent, of all people, should clearly know this. There have been, and are, many unjust laws, whether one believes this one in question to be, or not.

Respectfully,

John
 
Spectre said:
There was no "adjustment". There was only application of a law.

Also by (at least some of) your definitions, Germans turning in or participating in executing Jews in WWII would be "just", since they were "conforming to law". I will agree with you that the application was impartial...is that a good thing? How does one classify an unjust law?

This is, after all, the same country that will give you a year in jail for selling or smuggling gum into the country. Does Singapore have a right to enforce this law in their own country? Sure, but it's just one example of a law that is malum prohibitum. In other words, something that society has deemed a transgression even though the action is not inherently wrong (malum in se).

I am against mandated minimum sentences in the US. The reason is, of course, that it removes discretion from the judges. Thus, it is entirely possible that the same sentence could be applied for a relatively minor offense and a much more serious one.

John


Well said, John, and you make a good point. But now we're in the territory of "inherently wrong."

What is inherently wrong? Who decides this? Who should decide this? And where do we draw the line between something that should be wrong, but is not? (Or vice versa.)
 
Dave, the mallum in se offenses are obvious transgressions against people: rape, murder, robbery, etc all fall under these headings.

Some laws that are mallum prohibitum are definitely needed, as well. I personally agree, for instance, with restricting speed limits near school during certain hours. Driving too fast for conditions may not be morally reprehensible, but it might be dangerous.

I have strong ideas about both personal responsibility and individual freedom. I know I am somewhat radical in my beliefs, but if you think about, radicalism is necessary, sometimes. Hell, "leave people alone if they ain't botherin' nobody" isn't such a bad motto, when you think about it.

(Yes, I understand the reasons many disagree with legalizing many currently outlawed substances. No, was not speaking specifically of this one instance in a foreign country, when voicing my views about freedom.)

John
 
Spectre said:
By your evident standards, Mr. Hausman, any clear law can be just.
You misinterpret my standards. I was speaking of Singaporean law on drug possession. We can legislate for the planet in another thread. :)

... and one of Jewish descent, of all people,
Of all peoples, Jews have a great range of attitudes towards any issue. "Monolithic" is not a Jewish philosophical concept.

Let's dig ourselves out of a hole we seem to have slipped into:

Nazi laws against segments of the population of Germany and German-occupied territory were unjust because they were unfair.

Singapore law on executing drug possessors iis fair because it singles out no one -- the criminal has to single himself out.
 
...but Jews also tend to have a longer, more coherent social memory than most groups, and even those without that ability could hardly fail to notice the genocide of several millions just 60 years ago. I wasn't speaking of political leanings. :)

There is quite a bit of potential for contention on the nebulous quality of "fair" you're describing, but I don't have time or energy. (Damn the "jerk off smiley"; aside from sheer vulgarity, the movement is distracting next to the dialog box.)

I agree with a very specific idea you've expressed, which is that the Singapore law is clear and consistent.
 
This is a very interesting discussion.

All laws discriminate on some basis. Indeed, most decisions involve discrimination in some form.

I don't accept that any law that punishes for an action rather than status of birth is ipso facto "fair."

In some countries, it is unlawful to practice Christianity, which is something one elects to do, with severe penalties. As recent stories have highlighted, attempting to convert others to Christianity -- which one elects to do -- is a capital offense in several countries.

A great many nations wish for international accords outlawing a free press and private possession of firearms.

Is fairness or justice always relative to the decisions of those in power in a particular country?
 
The first concept we need to embrace is "uiniverse of discourse". It is frustrating to do color photography with black and white film.

Cultural differences make every kind of comparison perilous. I think most of us would agree that personal behavior should be off-limits to the law. As long as it doesn't effect others, they have no natural right to complain.

But when we are dealing with different sovereign nations, and unique and disparate cultures, we aren't even going to get that much agreement. Is transporting drugs through Singapore as wrong as bringing it into Singapore for sale there? Same penalty. Ouch.

Personally, I am much more comfortable discussing our own society's situation. We can get to the rest of the world once we've worked out our own system's bugs.
 
Esav Benyamin said:
I disagree with the sophistry surrounding the concept of justice. The law was clear, the law was known, the law provided for lesser penalties for lesser levels of offense. The criminal chose to violate that law at its most severe level of punishment.

I congratulate Singaporean justice because its law and administration are not fuzzy and do not lead people into thinking they can negotiate bad behavior -- as Van's brother seems to have been able to do in Australia.

There may be more to this than sophistry. Concepts of justice are to an extent cultural. Our own concepts seem to be evolving as evidenced by the Supreme Court reversing its stand on various issues through time.

The Declaration of Independence talks about "inalienable rights." We tend to think that whatever rights we enjoy in a particular time and place are god given. Rarely do we stop to think that others in another time or place might have quite different ideas.

Australians and Americans have a percieved "right" to present a sob story as a mitigating factor in their crimes, and expect reduction or elimination of their punishment. This is not absolute of course, and things like sentencing guidelines are a reaction to this expectation.

Singapore apparently does not share this cultural expectation.

I think I would be quite comfortable in Singapore. One of my close friends and co-worker was born and raised there. We have talked about that society and someday I hope to stay there longer than a brief trip through the airport.

I had to face this difference in cultural expectations when I took my teenagers to visit the PRC. Before we left we had a discussion of rights and justice, and the fact that they were going to a place where these culturally based terms did not mean the same thing as where they grew up. They acknowledged before we left that their US rights would not be much help with a foreign bullet in the back of their heads. They had a great time in their travels, grew up a lot, and didn't even try to smuggle any dope to alleviate teenage ennui.
 
isnt singapore the same place that beat a white kid with a shinai because he spraypainted some cars a few years back?
 
DannyinJapan said:
isnt singapore the same place that beat a white kid with a shinai because he spraypainted some cars a few years back?

Yes.

There is a quite substantial tax on automobiles in Singapore, and they cost considerably more to own and operate in that small city than elsewhere. I remember discussing this young vandal with my co-worker from Singapore.

I think they use rattan instead of a shinai though. For reference see http://www.corpun.com/singfeat.htm#dimensions (warning - some pictures of scarred buttocks and canings on this site.)
 
Yes, it is. Like the Australian Mr. Van, the young American ex-pat violated a law with which he was familiar. He was not blindsided by an alien concept of behavior. He was contemptuous of the local mores.
 
Mr. Benyamin

Thank you for drawing my attention to my imprecise use of the word "murder". I apologise for this. The Van Nguyen execution by the Singapore government was indeed in accordance with the law, and as I have already pointed out in my earlier post, that law is in accordance with the wishes of most of the citizens of Singapore. However, mandatory death penalties are not consistent with international law, which tends to reflect the attitudes and values of the majority of people in the world. By the existence of a mandatory death penalty in the Singapore legal code, Singapore has placed itself outside the world community.

In respect of the concept of "justice".

The English language carries varying shades of meaning in different places. Your reference has provided a meaning which could perhaps be taken to be acceptable in the USA. In Britain, a more acceptable meaning would be that given by Oxford, which in the context of the present discussion is "the quality of being fair and reasonable".It is a basic principle of democracy that there be separation between the political administration of a society and the judiciary. When the political arm introduces mandatory sentencing it over rides the judiciary and destroys one of the basic principles of democracy. Singapore purports to be a democracy, but the way in which successive Singaporean governments have interpreted the concept of "democracy" leave this open to question.

In law statistical evidence can be admitted as testimony. In many professional fields statistical evidence is used to provide an indication of probability. Statistical evidence does much more than infer that something is so, it provides a foundation for the calculation of the probability of something in fact being so.
In the context in which I used "statistical evidence", there are already more than sufficient proven cases of wrongful conviction of persons who would have been executed had it not been for new evidence coming to light. In recent years this new evidence has been provided by DNA, but even before DNA testing began to be employed, it was acknowledged within the judiciary that not all persons convicted of capital crimes were indeed guilty. The point is this:- people have been executed who did not commit the crime for which they were executed. This is fact.

During the 1970`s President Nixon began to escalate his war on drugs to attempt to prevent heroin coming home with the returning soldiers from Vietnam.

In 1975 Singapore, Malaysia and Indonesia imposed the death penalty on drug smugglers.I can state with certainty that the actions of these countries was a direct result of diplomatic pressure applied on these countries by the USA. You may accept this or not, as you wish, but it is fact. At the same time we were pressuring Australia and other countries to toughen their stance on drugs, however not all these other countries saw fit to introduce the death penalty for drug related offences.The countries that did introduce the death penalty for drug related offences were notable because of the similarity of their governments:- all were undemocratic states in which the death penalty was already in common use.Most of these countries were Islamic, and puritan Islam was on the rise. Other countries to follow the lead of the South East Asian countries were Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and Iran, as well as some states in North Africa.

Singapore`s stance was to a large extent the result of the personal philosophy of Lee Kwan Yew.Lee had destroyed trade unionism in Singapore, abolished habeas corpus, and the Singapore judiciary were hand picked and acted at his direction.During the 1970`s the Singapore police would often forcibly cut the hair of male tourists if their hair was below the height of their collar. A little later, chewing gum was made illegal.Campaigns were run to get rid of homosexuals, prostitutes, drunks. The campaign against drugs was targetted principally at the indigenous Malays, however in practice it affected all levels of Singapore society.Singapore`s mandatory sentence of death for some drug related offences may well be an expression of the will of the citizens of Singapore, and an expression of the philosophy of the Singapore government, however the world today is a global village and Singapore`s present stance is out of step with the international laws that this global village has decided best express the global philosophy.

Let me make it clear that I do not oppose the death penalty where the citizens of a country deem that such a penalty is fitting punishment for a crime. I personally am opposed to the death penalty, but I am not opposed to the democratic right of the citizens of any country to decide that they want the death penalty.

However, I most definitely cannot agree with the government of any country enacting laws which provide for a mandatory death sentence, thereby destroying the separation between government and judiciary which is so necessary to the functioning of a democratic state.
 
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