Breaking in the DMT D8EE

Bill DeShivs said:
Knifenut is absolutely correct about waterstones eating away the nickel plating that holds the diamonds. Waterstones are soft, and the diamonds dig into them, allowing the waterstone surface to abrade the nickel.
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Maybe so, but for a reference the Shapton Glasstones are WAY harder than my Norton 8K waterstone, and in 2 years my D8C and D8F show no bad signs from flattening my Glasstones despite what DMT warns will happen. The Glassstones are so much more gouge resistant and stay flat so much longer than a Norton waterstone it is like the are a total different class of stone. Actually, considering Glasstones don't require soaking, only a light spritzing of water they really are a different class of stone. The 16000 grit Glasstone may kill a D8EE, but with my experience with other Diasharps on Glasstones I wouldn't be so sure, though I won't push my luck unless I end up not liking the stone. After Knifenut's endorsement it seems I'm only a good break in away from having a great stone, but I'll have to see how patient I am at breaking it in and how I like the edges. It should leave a toothier edge than my 8K Glasstone that whittles hair like a champ, but I need to make that a reality before I get too excited.

Mike
 
I'll ask again, did you get that pm with the link?

The EEF seems to be the only stone its a problem with. My guess is because there is not much distance between the tips of the diamonds and the nickel matrix, so when the lapping starts and the particles from the softer stone are released it penetrates past the diamonds (also because the diamonds are so small) and wears on the nickel.

On a side note, are the shaptons really ceramic or a mixture of abrasives?
 
knifenut1013 said:
I'll ask again, did you get that pm with the link?

The EEF seems to be the only stone its a problem with. My guess is because there is not much distance between the tips of the diamonds and the nickel matrix, so when the lapping starts and the particles from the softer stone are released it penetrates past the diamonds (also because the diamonds are so small) and wears on the nickel.

On a side note, are the shaptons really ceramic or a mixture of abrasives?
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I think that PM got lost when I had to clear out my mailbox unfortunately. The Shaptons are a mix of ceramics, by the way they act probably a good very high amount of ceramics, and they only take just a tad of water on the surface to work. They are not even close to being like any other waterstone I have ever used, as all of the other waterstones I've used need to be soaked for at least a few minutes, some up to a 1/2 hour just to be ready to be used. I understand the mechanism of pulling the diamonds out of the matrix, I just think that the Glasstone is such a different animal that it needs to not be written off quite so quick as a DMT Diasharp killer. I would think that in the last 2 years my D8C and D8F would be dead by now (as DMT says they would using them to flatten waterstones, they only say they D8XX is good for waterstones) from all of the flattening sessions they have been through on my Glasstones. Again, I won't use it to flatten anything for a long time, and then only if I don't like it's sharpness that it produces. I'll probably follow Thom Brogan's advice and get the little 4" polka dot EE to try out on my 16K Glasstone first to see if it shows any ill effects. As he said, killing a $20 stone is a lot easier to swallow than killing a $70 stone, especially when that $70 stone may be my ticket to getting a good high grit edge on my S90V Manix @. The 16000 grit Glasstone could always follow it to pretty up the bevel and get a bit more sharpness, but I have found S90V to like toothier edges off of my D8C and D8F more than anything else so far. Maybe the D8EE will be just the ticket for getting that extra pushcutting sharpness (to get beyond mere hair popping at the Coarse grit) that still retains some teeth so the Vanadium carbides can do their thing. We'll see, but I think taking a closer look at the Glasstones will show you just how different they are from other waterstones.

Mike
 
The one caveat I'd add is to change mental gears. If you're used to toning your triceps and abs with the D8XX (the Bladeforums knife-sculpting workout! :D ), it's tough to pretend you're pushing a feather over sandpaper without wrinkling or otherwise bending its vane.
 
I cant find it now but the PM had a link to a thread on this exact subject, The person used a EEF to lap a 16k glass stone and had to send the hone back to DMT because when he was done he had nothing but a flat piece of metal. lucky for him they replaced it. Like I said you can try it but you WILL ruin the stone.

Once the bank account recovers from the holidays I have to pick up one of those glass stones. Thanks for all the help you given me on the subject.
 
Thanks for the info, Knifenut and Thom. I'll search up that thread, I'm sure I can find it with a Google search or ten. I'm curious if the 16K Glasstone user that destroyed the D8EE in one shot used the D8C to do the heavy lifting on flattening it dead flat, then lightly refined the D8C scratches with the D8F as I currently do and finish off at, then used the D8EE to very lightly finish it off (that's how I would use it). More likely he just decided to use the D8EE and press down on the thing hard to try to flatten out the Glasstone when it was dished a bit and in the meanwhile managed to make his D8EE a paperweight. Again, I would try out the tiny 4" EE prior to using the D8EE for flattening, and I'm hoping I like the D8EE enough to never try it for flattening. It would be with an ultra light touch that I would use it as a flattener if I did use it, and it would be only refining the D8F scratches in the already flat stone, so it technically wouldn't be flattening, just very lightly going over the very top of the Glasstone to get the surface smoothed out a tad compared to the 600 grit scratches in it from the D8F. The 4" EE will be my testing bed, and if it works for me as a "flattenier/refiner" then I see no reason to risk the D8EE in that role unless the polka dot pattern causes me fits (the Diasharps I use for flatenning are great because they are dead flat and have the weight of all of that steel behind them, the polka dot stones are flexible which is why I don't like them as flatteners). On a technical side I just don't see how if I haven't killed a D8F as a refiner (or especially the D8C which I use for pure flattening) that using an even lighter touch on the D8EE would kill it on the same stone that doesn't give my other Diasharps any trouble, In spite of DMT's warnings anout the D8XX being the only Diasharp suitable for flattening. I know DMT only warrants the D8XX as a flattener, and it works great at that, but I know others have complained of destroying their D8XX stones when flattening (I believe mostly on the Glasstone in 250 grit, which appears to be a beast on any flattening stone), so anything can happen. I'll order up a 4" EE shortly so I can see what happens and leave the D8EE to pure sharpening duties, mainly on my S90V Manix 2 for both break in and the fact that that is the only steel that seems to not get full effect from using the Glasstones, so I'm hoping the D8EE should provide a nice toothy yet much better push cutting edge than my current 320 grit with light stropping routine provides on the Manix 2, which is a knife I really like a lot. I must like that knife to buy a stone on a whim mainly to try to bring out the full potential of the steel in that knife. Hopefully I can keep patient and not get so frustrated with the stone I want to chuck it across a room, but maybe a grit jump from D8C to D8EE on my S90V Manix 2 will go a long ways towards breaking it in.

Mike
 
Found the link Knifenut, thanks. It is very interesting, and I definately make sure I'm not seeing black slurry as is, and with my D8C and D8F I don't force it: as soon as it starts suctioning the stones together I separate them and wash them off, then continue. It appears as you were saying there is very little room for error with the D8EE, and if I see any black slurry (the Glasstones are straight white by then from the other stones lapping it) that those are your diamonds disappearing as the slurry laps your nickel bonding on the DMT stone. I'll get to get a good look at this with the 4" EE, though with the lighter weight it seems much easier to keep it from putting too much pressure on the Glasstone and building a slurry. Running water in the sink is my current routine anyway, so I have that part covered protection wise, but again I'll have to see how the little 4" EE works. It may not even make any notable difference in the finish on the 16K Glasstone from the D8F, in which case there is no point at all in ever chancing a D8EE to lapping it. Even if I don't end up liking the D8EE I can always sell it for a little bit rather than chancing destroying it if the 4" EE has lapping issues.

For others, here is the link:

http://www.straightrazorplace.com/forums/advanced-honing-topics/31020-dmt-new-problem.html
 
Interesting thread! I've got the full complement of DMT 10x4 - EC black, C blue, F red, and EF green. I usually lap my Norton 4000/8000 on it for my straight razor, but with no pressure, only the weight of the stone. I might have been lucky so far, and I've only done it once or twice. I've also lapped my Norton 1000 on it due to some scratches from a sharpening session gone bad, but we won't go there. :D

I wish I had known you were looking for the EE Mike, you could have had mine. I've just not found a use for it yet, it's right in the middle of most of my stones, and I usually skip it in my routine.
 
Well, I've already gotten too many freebies off you Sodak so my eBay gift card had to work for me on this one. Speaking of which, i had free priority shipping on this stone and got it today. I am using it to refine a D8C bevel on my CPM M4 Mule, and the going is slow (I am using some dishsoap to slow the clogging) but the bevel is getter brighter and sharper, but you can definately still see grind lines clearly in spite of it starting to get mirror like. A 320 grit to "8000" grit jump on an ultra wear resistant steel is tough on removing the previous grit's scratches, so no surprise there. If I keep at it for a decent bit longer I should get to see some nice progress on stone break in, and in the end have a stone that leaves a finish between my 2K and 8K Glasstone to fill that niche, and it should sharpen S90V unlike any of my other high grit stones.

Mike
 
Your S90V might require a steeper microbevel to see the full effect of anything. It's got carbides the size of wallabies.
 
So-Lo said:
Mike, are you getting that manix ready for me? :D
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I'll be working it over on this stone for sure, though the final edge can have the 8K and 16K Glasstones follow it, then either my .25 micron diamond spray on leather or my sub micron lapping films. I'll see what I can do for you to make it slightly sharp.

Thom, yes the caribides are the size of wallabies, or maybe more accurately the total amount of all of those carbides are the size of a wallabie. I don't think the individual carbides themselves are truly huge, but their certainly are a LOT of them in S90V. I guess the bright side to the super steep microbevel is that it makes a givin stone's finish finer compared to running it at a thinner angle (2000 grit at 10 degrees per side is about the same as 1000 grit a 20 degrees per side). Then again, the coarse edge Spyderco put on at 10 degrees per side from the factory was pretty sharp and lasted a really long time, so for some reason (microchipping allowing more of those wallabie sized carbides to be freshly exposed so the steel keeps on slicing when dull?) the steel performs fairly good at thin angles.

Mike
 
As an interesting update, I spoke with DMT today about the break in of the D8EE and also keeping it from clogging up (and cleaning my other Diasharps to keep them cutting at full speed). Amazingly, they told me to LIGHTLY, under running water, use circular motions to lap a waterstone for about 30 seconds and the stone should be fully broken in. I mentioned the D8C to D8EE jump with the M4 Mule that I did last night, which now has a bit of a polish (nowhere near a 2000 grit Glasstone though, probably due to the D8EE being new and the D8C scratches still showing through) and he said that was great, but that to get the polish I want quickly it is safe to use the waterstone. He DID NOT recommend I make a habit of lapping the waterstone, just lightly under running water use the circular motions for 30 seconds and my stone would be where I wanted it. If I see the first hint of black slurry I will abort, but I think I will try this to get my D8EE up to speed. Also, a stiff bristled brush with ajax will get my existing stones unclogged, and as I already knew he said use a dab of dish soap with water to keep the stone from clogging up instantly. I was pretty much shaocked to hear the recommendation to lap the waterstone, but it makes sense as a 1 time event on a clean, already flat waterstone with very light circular motions. I'll report back, and if the stone goes kaput at least I have a good excuse with the warranty department.

Mike
 
This really is an intresting thread, im planning on buying some dia sharps but have been hessitating (or how ever you right that) on a EEF dia sharp.
 
Do the finer DMT hones clog? I've been really thinking about trying the DMT EF and EEF hones. I'm a big beleiver in the coarser DMT hones and have to admit Knifenut is starting to convince me on the value of the DMT for finishing. Dammmmmb you Knifenut :) more hones are just what I don't need to get. :)
 
Thanks for sharing the DMT person's advice, Mike! Feliz neujahr!

db,

Yes, the finer grit DMTs clog readily and easily. The coarse diasharp will, too, if used dry with a lot of pressure and a lot of edges. From reading yuzuha's posts, I've found water and nearly any alkaline solvent will work. Instead of soap, I use baking soda. If you have a lot of work to do; as in taking that shy factory edge of uneven grind and turning it into a convex bevel that angrily climbs towards the spine; mixing a bit of washing soda with water will inhibit corrosion better than the baking soda or soap will.
 
I think I used a bit too little time and pressure on my D8EE lapping my 16K Glasstone last night (better that than too much time and pressure), as the finish left by the D8EE on the Gayle Bradley M4 folder I was sharpening wasn't as bright as the 1K Glasstone got it. Then again, jumping from 600 grit to 8000 grit doesn't fo the D8EE any favors, and it is possible that if I had gone from 2K Glasstone to D8EE I might have improved the polish, but either way it is a tad more broken in. I will lightly lap the 16K Glasstone for maybe 5 seconds once or twice again under running water and look for black water to do a final break in on the waterstones, then just let my S90V Manix 2 have it's way with the D8EE this weekend to see what happens. Just as a curiousity, how long does it take to fully remove D8EF scratches with a D8EE? I may end up jumping from 2K Glasstone to D8EE until I get a D8EF (if I get a D8EF) and am curious how long I should expect to have to wait for the stone to do it's thing. At this point I'm not even sure what the scratch pattern should look like, so it is hard to tell. I may go with some sideways scratches on my prior grit, then use back and forth strokes with the D8EE to see what it's scratch pattern looks like now. Just going over D8C scratches in the same direction didn't give me much feedback, as the M4 Mule slowly got a bit shinier, but I never removed all of those coarser scratches and the scratches I was making just blended in with the existing ones.

As a PS, that Bradley folder is a sweet piece of steel that gets a unreal polish and level of sharpness off of Glasstones and 3M lapping film. At the coarser DMT grits it was really sharp too, but CPM M4, especially Spyderco's version of it, just takes an unreal polish and amazing level of sharpness.

Mike
 
db said:
Do the finer DMT hones clog? I've been really thinking about trying the DMT EF and EEF hones. I'm a big beleiver in the coarser DMT hones and have to admit Knifenut is starting to convince me on the value of the DMT for finishing. Dammmmmb you Knifenut :) more hones are just what I don't need to get. :)
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Your welcome :D


Mike, the scratch pattern from the EEF can be a bit confusing. You never end up with a perfect polish the way the diamonds cut just won't allow it. The surface becomes polished but still retains a fine scratch pattern, its the diamond edge.

The amount it will polish a given steel seems to vary a bit with the steel itself.
S30V
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Picture878.jpg


ZDP-189
ZDP-189028.jpg


ZDP-189027.jpg


ZDP-189037.jpg


The last two pic's are after using soapy water on the EEF stone.
 
Thanks for the pics, Knifenut. I don't really expect a perfect mirror like my waterstones give me, but I am hoping for some nice push cutting with some tooth still there in my S90V Manix 2 (and whatever other knives I sharpen with it). I can always polish the backbevel and microbevel with it anyway to get a pretty backbevel and the D8EE edge finish for it's sharpness, but we'll see how much I care to polish out the backbevel. At this point I think I'll microbevel my existing knives with the pretty backbevel but on my new rebevels like I did last night on my Gayle Bradley I'll just stop at D8EE if I like the sharpness and save myself some time. I do need to keep breaking it in to get that great edge that you plan on using on most of your personal knives, Knifenut, but based on that endorsement for the performance of the D8EE when properly broken in I should really like the sharpness. On any steel worth it's salt that stone should peel off tiny, tiny curls of hair and still have a bit of slicing aggression left (unlike a no-tooth 8000 grit waterstone finish) if it is Knifenut approved as a finishing stone. On my hunting knives I might stay a tiny bit coarser, but I think on my next skinning job I'll try the D8EE finish yo see how that finish works. .05 microns was too fine of a finish to where the knife cut better after dulling and getting some teeth from the carbides getting exposed due to the pure slicing motion of skinning, and my hair whittling edge just wan't ideal. 2000 grit waterstones worked great on my 400 lb. Boar, but it appears the D8EE can give me better pushcutting with similar if not better slicing aggression, if not the mirror finish a 2000 grit Glasstone gives you. As long as the knife cuts good with good edge retention who cares about the looks.

Mike
 
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