Breaking locks on these many famous knives-GREAT INFO..!!

MTF3 and Rage
We are intrested in looking at his handy work and sent Frank a email, so far no response from him.

Bob Taylor

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Some days it's not worth chewing through the restraints and escaping.
 
Sorry folks, and Bob, i sent you an e-mail, i will be keeping these knives, i will repair my axis lock and carnivour.-Pin enlargments, pivot changes, the whole shmeer.
 
Originally posted by Bob Taylor:
MTF3 and Rage
We are intrested in looking at his handy work and sent Frank a email, so far no response from him.

Bob Taylor
Click to expand...

What I want to know is what real life situation would require this level of force on a lock?

Also, are we (BladeForums members) changing the knife industry? Do knife designers say, "We better beef up that locking mechanism so when some guy from BladeForums clamps it in a vise it will hold."?
 
MTF3; well, frankly, I HOPE that we on the forums are changing the knife industry. I would like to think that they keep an eye on the forums and incorporate what ideas we have that they think practicable. Certainly Chris Reeve does this. IIRC, Camillus changed some of their manufacturing techniques after one of Mike Turber's tests.

As far as lock strength goes, Chris Reeve states that his goal from the first was to make a folder that was as strong as a fixed blade. I think that his Sebenza comes pretty darn close.

There is nothing wrong with a strong folder lock. Remember that it is YOUR hand that is likely to be the object in the way of the blade if the lock fails.

Walt
 
BTW, Walt is totally right about saying it is your hand. The only reason i did these test was to see what the exact pressure was until these knives break. I think of things, and i'm quite paranoid on a folder, especially a self-defense folder's lock strength. To be honest, the only folders i would trust to save my life is a integral lock design(sebenza, pinnacle) or any strong lock mech. like the rolling lock, or the axis lock. Personally, i just love the axis locks, don't get me wrong, the handle on the Carnivour is much stronger in terms of what i call "Structural Integrity"-meaning the rekat has many more assembly screws, and an overall construction, but the light weight of the axis lock model 710 is great. Plus, in terms of self-defense, the axis is a much better slasher-the edge is was thinner, and the recurve is greater-just my opinions. Although my dream knife is still this, and i wish Benchmade would make them, here goes.
Picture an AFCK w/tanto tip, and chisel ground-but a hollow grind, like Elishewitz knives. And the tanto would be a Microtech SOCOM type tanto, not the infamous CQC7 tanto. A very thin tanto-for these are great slashers. Next, it would be an Axis lock design, tip up of coarse. With a nice glass bead finish, now thats great...


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"for future shall not bring freedom..but not the sight that man sees, harvest your freedom, and make a future..for no one is here to protect your fate, and tame your dreams-freedom, it's in the air..."
 
Adding my name to salute you for this awsome test. Very important information. This kind of thing is what makes this site so good.

thanks,

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Roger Blake
 
smile.gif
It's unlikely a knife will ever have to stand an abuse like this but still, awesome info.
biggrin.gif


I am wondering how MTs would stand that. But I am not ready to test mine this way.
biggrin.gif


Kris
 
First off, great info Frank and thanks. You did a good thing for the forums.

BM Pinnacle model 750-this knife is a winner, it took as much pressure as both the Rekat, and Axis, but it did bend slot more-the lock bar bent outwards, but never failed, and it withstood the rubber malet-this knife is very solid.
Click to expand...

What do you mean by this? I can't seem to picture it. Did any part of the lock bar bend at all?

A point to keep in mind, the cutout for the lock bar on the sebenza and pinnacle are different. Each have their own advantages and disadvantages. I can be wrong but I would bet the Pinnacle's lock is stronger than the Sebenzas.

-Johnny

[This message has been edited by JoHnYKwSt (edited 03-30-2000).]
 
Frank/Rage, did you examine the Rolling /Axis and Integral locks before you hit them with the hammer? I would be curious to know if that was the source of the damage. All of the locks have strength ratings well beyond the approx. 200 lbs of force you applied. For example the Rolling Lock is rated at over 1000 in.lbs of torque by Spyderco, so it should be reasonable to assume that you putting 200 lbs of force on the handle should not have done anything to it at all because there is no way that produced 1000+ in.lbs of torque.

Which brings up a problem I have which such statistics. The 1000+ in.lbs is the break point. All that matters really is the point at which the lock becomes unstable - which is what you found and it appears to be much lower and put the Rolling lock under the Axis and Integral.

The impacts as well bring up an important point. What difference does it make if the lock can take 500 lbs on the handle but a couple of smacks with a mallet render it unstable? Your hammer test seems to agrees with what Steve Harvey saw when he beat on the Axis and Rolling locks awhile ago and saw the rolling lock fail (he was using a stick and thus the impact veloticy was probably much greater).

A suggestion, if you ever repeat this it would be useful if you examined the locks and do a spine wack test before and after you hit them with the mallet.

As for REKAT, you really should let them examine the folder, if they have requested it. It is only fair that they should have the ability to comment on it. Same of course goes for Benchmade.

By the way, there is a Review/Testing forum.

-Cliff


[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 03-30-2000).]
 
Physically, if the 200 lbs was applied 5 inches from the pivot, 1000 lb-in of torque would have been produced. But if that is the 'breaking point,' it might take significantly less torque to damage the lock enough to produce blade play without a catastrophic failure. Since I first saw the Axis design I just said to myself 'that's a strong lock,' and I'm glad that the tests showed me to be correct. I would love to see Axis locks in custom knives, as better tolerances and stronger materials could easily put the Axis above any other lock I've ever seen (yes, even integrals). When my BM730 comes in, I'm going to do some physics on it and figure out how strong it would be with better materials (and I'll post that in the 'Testing' forum).

--JB

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e_utopia@hotmail.com
 
Considering the geometry of the handles, is it even possible to apply the force 5 inches from the piviot? Frank approx. at what point did you press down on the handle? I assumed that it was about half-way and thus the torque was about 400 or so in.lbs. I also doubt that you were generating 200 lbs of force. If you can, take a scale and do a few pushes to get a rough estimate of how much fource you were applying.


-Cliff
 
To answer a couple things, the Pinnacle's lock bar literally bent outwards from the middle of the bar, causing even the pocket clip to bend with it.-But never failed, my guess is that the Pinnacle's lock is stronger, but the Sebenza has a better construction-stronger bolts, compared to the pinnacles 2 assembly screws-which are thin, and a pivot pin. The Axis and Rekat, believe it or not, did have about 1/16in back and forth play-after the weight was applied to it, this was before the malet test, all Surviving models(pinnacle, axis, and rekat) where struck on the back of the handle-i did not measure, but let me tell you, i really kicked the sh** out of these knives. Once again, i dont buy this inch-pounds crap, i just like to do some good old fashion kill 'Em till they die tests, and believe me, they did not die, i really hit them hard. I'll give yall some more info withing Friday night, i really gotta go, sorry.
 
It is important to note that Bob Taylor of REKAT has commented that the expected behavior of the Rolling Lock is not what happened to Frank/Rage's blade. His comments can be seen here :

http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum22/HTML/000400.html

It would be worth it to get the BMST perspective on the behavior of the Axis and Integral folders.

-Cliff


[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 04-05-2000).]
 
One of the most interesting threads I have ever read here. Thank you. Your sacrifice has resulted in the rest of us gaining valuable knowledge and you are to be commended.

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Dennis Bible
 
Thank you for the unselfish sacrifice.
Knifeland specially me gained a lot from
your test.

Now I'm thankfull I chose BM710 (Axis Lock)
over Endura. More on this I'm glad I also
bought Sebenza (Integral Lock).

My fingers remaining attached to my hand
will always be the primary consideration
when choosing folding knives, and the
cosmetic stuffs like pearl, fancy wood
handle, cool blade material and style goes
next in importance.

2d_edge

Genus Sebenza Terrifica

[This message has been edited by 2d_edge (edited 04-15-2000).]
 
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