Bridging the gap - Collectors of Custom and Production

Alex I see and no your point well and this is where they need educated

That certain steels and heat treats lend themselves to certain applications

Show them pics like this

Showing what a properly heat treated piece of high Carbon steel can do

L1000467-1.jpg


L1000469-1.jpg


Than explain to them that men have carried high carbon blades off to sea and war for years and they did not disintegrate :)
 
Hello!

Joe, I have been trying to spread the word on two local forums for quite some time, but the bias with the tactical guys was so strong that I don't bother any more. My - maybe too idealisic and unrealistic - thinking was to get them hooked by the impeccable workmanship and superb handling of a great maker using a "super steel" to make them wonder about those "other" knives he has to offer. Then to try one and to find out what's what themselves. This would mean more than one additional knife sold, a solid new base for the classic designs with classic steel, happy buyers and happy makers. ;)

Regards,
Alex
 
Hello!

Joe, I have been trying to spread the word on two local forums for quite some time, but the bias with the tactical guys was so strong that I don't bother any more. My - maybe too idealisic and unrealistic - thinking was to get them hooked by the impeccable workmanship and superb handling of a great maker using a "super steel" to make them wonder about those "other" knives he has to offer. Then to try one and to find out what's what themselves. This would mean more than one additional knife sold, a solid new base for the classic designs with classic steel, happy buyers and happy makers. ;)

Regards,
Alex

I understand and commend you for trying :)

What I have seen in today's tactical market and I do not mean this in any way negative, it is just the truth is that most are clad in green or brown and have bags for bellies and hands that are pale and soft. They even get sore hands from working their flippers :) so to stress that a folder needs a different steel than a hard use camp knife is a mute point. They are looking for a no maintenance steel that will never cut anything :)

But tastes are tastes and and when I am working with an artist that is trying to cultivate a customer base I urge them to not ignore what is in front of their faces

You must plant seeds so that you can reap the rewards in the future

If you only make blades for us salt and pepper haired guys soon your customer base will be dead and you will not have cultivated another group of customers

Look at the projects that Jason and I do

They have a hard performance and utilitarian theme

No natural materials or hand rubbed blades

Sure Jason can make ivory handled hand rubbed finished blades with the best of them but he is cultivating his market

His name is already established with the higher end ABS crowd but it is also growing rapidly among a whole new breed of consumer

As they get older there taste might swing to the familiar ABS style blades and that is awesome because he can do that in spades but if it does not they still will no for the best of the best in all out combat blades his name will still be at the top

He is servicing the whole market

Nick my friend Wheeler :) is also a maker with his eye on the future

He puts out the high end pieces that appeal to the older clientele but he also does bad ass utilitarian pieces that attract a whole new and different market

I also work in the archery industry. Mostly in the so called trad market (recurves and longbows) I work with one of the largest Archery vendors n the world

We have seen the shift from ornate high end bows that are exhibiting yesteryears performance characteristics to the less fancy more performance driven side of the market

There is also the fancy high end performance market and we are covering that also

With the advent of the hunger game movies traditional archery interest is at an all time high and these new buyers have a whole different mind set on what they want for their dollar

In the trad world the days of the floppy hat plaid archery types are diminishing and the rise of the young ILF market is rising

Many knife makers and I will not use names are content to pander to an old collector base

They are older themselves and have their back log so they are content

About the time they are ready to throw in the towel so will there customer base

But you young makers that have families and need to keep things moving for the next 30 years need to be recruiting new customers pandering to the Patsy's so to speak

Just as a farmer plants seeds so must a knife maker and that does not IMHO mean waiting for people's tastes to mature or change when in fact they might not ever
 
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I don't believe the OP was discussing whether carbon steel bowies are in or out, but how to bridge the gap between custom and production knives.

Not even really a question of performance, as much as what many people like to look at, hold and fondle at different price points.

If many people believe they can extract as much pleasure from a $75 knife than a $750 knife, than these people will not be buying custom knives. Period.

I'm not a big production knife guy...HOWEVER in the past several years, after handling a production knife my continuing thought is "I know a dozen custom makers that would give their left nut to make a knife this nice"...


JMHO...YMMV


-Michael
 
I don't believe the OP was discussing whether carbon steel bowies are in or out, but how to bridge the gap between custom and production knives.

Not even really a question of performance, as much as what many people like to look at, hold and fondle at different price points.

If many people believe they can extract as much pleasure from a $75 knife than a $750 knife, than these people will not be buying custom knives. Period.

I'm not a big production knife guy...HOWEVER in the past several years, after handling a production knife my continuing thought is "I know a dozen custom makers that would give their left nut to make a knife this nice"...


JMHO...YMMV


-Michael

Michael

My point is

People buying production knives are already buying knives that are being designed by custom makers that are making blades in the genre that is popular with the young buyers

As their budget allows they will move into these makers mid tech lines and than possible there full blown customs

And yes it is a question of performance and perceived value

I for one will only spend my money on what I believe is a better performing product

The names of the custom makers that the production makers are using are teaching there consumers who these makers are

So the younger buyer has heard of the designer and has been educated

Loveless design design stamped on a blade has sold many a production knife and in turn brought the loveless name in its time to many people's attention

Ask Gerber

Who are the manufactures working with ?

Who are they promoting and educating their clientele on ?

Not many ABS Smiths

Reason being

It's not what up the new younger upcoming market wants

I take no joy in this but its a fact and I have see way to many great knife makers living knife to knife and than what happens when they can't make anymore

So the quickest way to introduce production knife buyers to customs is for custom makers to produce what a new younger buying audience is looking for
 
Joe,

I don't believe most people are in the enviable position you are, in that you use your knives in a very robust lifestyle (I hope my jealousy isn't showing too much :D ).

I am just about to head to the pre-game meet and great for tomorrow's Chesapeake knife show. The evening will consist of much fondling, flipping, eyeballing, wiping with a cloth, discussion of what's hot, what's 'cool', what resell is, who's going to be left standing without a chair when the music stops, etc. I'd bet my bottom dollar that whether a Fisk or Rhea holds an edge longer...or whether a Rexford or Terzuola needs to be sharpened more often will never enter into the discussion.

Having a knife in hand for most of the day as I do, this is coming from a person that uses his knives more than most...

This might also be evidenced by the fact that very few custom knife collector actively collect custom kitchen knives...probably the knife most often used by *most* people.

I think it is the same reason that many people would like to wear an IWC Grande Chronograph, knowing full well that a $50 quartz watch undoubtedly keeps better time.

It's all about the pleasure the article, whatever it is, gives to the owner.

For you, and for me in the kitchen, it is about performance. For most people....maybe not so much.

So the quickest way to introduce production knife buyers to customs is for custom makers to produce what a new younger buying audience is looking for


I wholeheartedly agree with this, however the problem being for most people the production knives are becoming so dam close to the customs, then to consider the price point....ouch...

-Michael
 
I could not agree more that good production gliders are really closing the gap on average custom folders

Not as much in the fixed blade arena

It seems that this new market is shying away from the natural materials and the synthetics are getting hotter

I would like to see more makers doing what Knight , Wheeler and Foster are doing and that is keeping an eye on what a younger emerging market is looking for

As for envious ... I wish I was going with you so we could interject are passions for high performance blades to the whole room :)
 
I currently use two ABS MS chef knives in my commercial kitchen.

When I propose to fellow chefs AND collectors that they should do the same, they look at me like I don't have both oars in the water.

Gotta say also, my Knight chef knife cut like a laser :D Wish he'd make more!

-Michael
 
I'm no collector, so I wonder if I should even be chiming in here. I'll give it a shot, but if you guys think me unqualified to give an opinion and want to tell me to kick rocks -- be gentle please. ;)

Are you concerned with fostering more interest in custom knives, or developing a deeper and broader collector base for them? Both ways are viable strategies of increasing demand for customs, and each has its challenges. The former will often lead to the latter of course, but not always. Using myself as an example I own a handful of customs, with a wish list for a few more. I have no interest in collecting them though. I'm just a guy who has loved knives since he was a kid, and bought a few pieces that he liked. I suspect that there are many like me, people who understand the value of the custom knife, yet do not have the inclination to become dedicated collectors. We might not be taste makers, but we are a significant slice of the market and shouldn't be neglected.

Second, and I might be be roasted for this, but I am not totally convinced of the superiority of customs over production knives. For some types, like the fighting bowie, give me the differentially tempered, distally tapered custom every time. But for other genres, I do not think customs offer a big enough advantage from their production counterparts to interest me. Both custom and production knife makers have stepped up their quality in the short time I've been paying attention, and there are many awesome factory knives these days.

I'd like to make one last point. Many custom makers only produce what they want. Good for them, they're skilled artisans and should follow their muse. BUT, I am not as interested in these makers as I am in the ones who are willing to build a knife according to my needs and wants. Part of what makes a custom knife better than a production number isn't just technical superiority, it's also not having to settle. I don't have to think, "I wish this bowie was a little more slender with a bit longer clip." Or "I hate synthetics, I wish the maker had used koa for the handle instead." "What's the point in using stainless steel for the guard when the blade is made of W2? If only he had used blued steel instead, the whole knife could age gracefully instead of an incongruous piece with a patinaed blade and shiny guard." Of course you gotta know the maker. Don't be an idiot and ask Bill Bagwell to make you a kwaiken. But IMO those makers who only produce the knives they want and don't make anything to order are limiting their customer base.
 
You have every right to comment and your opinion and spending dollar counts

People your age are part of the future of custom knives
 
Kamagong: Good post. Clearly spoken, well thought out.

The caveat to having buyers input from a maker's standpoint is a double edged blade. I'll bet each maker can give you attributes and horror stories.

Coop
 
Joe, I am sad to hear you say that the high end customs days are counted. :( My knifemaking is definitely moving more and more towards the art side. The way I see it, the more the tactical/performance oriented side takes over, the less people will be interested in functional “art” forcing art makers to move on to full blown exhibition only pieces, like a painter or sculptor for example. :(

I am what you could call a hobby maker so it won't affect me as much, financially wise, as a full time maker. But I would still like to step up to full time when I retire from my mundane job and I just hope there will be some people left to appreciate what I make. :o

Sorry to the op if this is a little off-topic.
 
Forget trying to get young people to shows. Focus some funds on an organized and professionally-run marketing campaign that first develops core messaging around what is valuable to that demographic about custom knives (tradition, unique, handmade goods, American vintage artisany, etc . . .), then executes a messaging campaign that includes influential blogs in the area of other handmade quality goods such as shoes, leather bags, etc and includes social media hubs that fit the target. Hire the right people that understand online messaging. Our job would be to simply help define the value of custom knives, the professional messaging and marketer's job would be to design content, including articles, video and images and plug it into it to the right markets online
 
Very Good thread gents! Thanks for starting it Jon!

Joe P. it's hard for 'me' to see the one off custom market going away. I see no light at the end of the tunnel, I'm too busy, too many orders. I'm pretty optimistic, but not blind. Times are a changin...:)

I do know what your sayin though and have been doing this long enough to see the changes. The changes have been huge in the last 30 years. The Tac market is by far the largest thing to hit!

It's all good! :cool:
 
Don you and a few makers are in a class all of your own and make your own markets :)
 
Thanks Joe, but it's more luck I think.

It does look like the ABS lost some steam, partly because they dropped the cutting comps and some political crap. Then we have the Guild, who pretty much cut off their own you know what.

No answers here, we just have to all do what we can.

I'm really looking forward to the Little Rock show in a couple months. Bring a friend! :D
 
I actually find myself staying away from the high end productions , my thinking is for a bit more I can get an entry level custom.

I have both productions and customs , and use both.

What I have noticed lately is insane prices for "tacticals" ( man I hate even typing that word ). I see so many that are just not ergonomic at all , just have more foo-foo gingerbread materials used. Does that make it a better performing knife ? Nope , but you get a few with deep pockets getting into bidding wars at shows , the price skyrockets and the whole market feels it has to reset.

I think these prices will scare away buyers.

I will say this , if more ABS/forging guys start crossing over into the "user" category , "tacticals" are gonna get pushed aside once buyers realize what a good should feel like in the hand.

Want to attract new buyers into the custom world that will actually USE the knives ? Give them some entry level offerings that work !! Enough with the bells and whistles.
 
An interesting topic.

Younger people and their shopping habits have changed after internet-shopping started.
Waiting for months on end for a cutting tool just isn't cutting it with them:)

There is also the fact that there are production knives out there that performs on such a level that the custom makers have a hard time convincing people that a much more expensive knife is actually worth the money and the wait.

I recognize this in my own habits as well.
Having bought around 50 custom straight razors over the last few years, I find myself less and less interested in the wait these days.
Now, I have never bought one of those solely to sit in a cupboard and look pretty.
I use every one of them in my rotation.
That might also be part of the issue discussed here.
Right here on BF.com one can see posts of custom knives more or less daily that are not used, nor designed to do so.
I wonder if that is what the market of today is looking for...
 
Patrice Lemée;12940171 said:
Joe, I am sad to hear you say that the high end customs days are counted. :( My knifemaking is definitely moving more and more towards the art side. The way I see it, the more the tactical/performance oriented side takes over, the less people will be interested in functional “art” forcing art makers to move on to full blown exhibition only pieces, like a painter or sculptor for example. :(

I am what you could call a hobby maker so it won't affect me as much, financially wise, as a full time maker. But I would still like to step up to full time when I retire from my mundane job and I just hope there will be some people left to appreciate what I make. :o

Sorry to the op if this is a little off-topic.

The high end customs time my friend is not counted it is just changing focus.

I just suggest makers be aware of what that focus is
 
Thanks Joe, but it's more luck I think.

It does look like the ABS lost some steam, partly because they dropped the cutting comps and some political crap. Then we have the Guild, who pretty much cut off their own you know what.

No answers here, we just have to all do what we can.

I'm really looking forward to the Little Rock show in a couple months. Bring a friend! :D

Your impressive career is far from lucky

You have earned your back log by distinguishing yourself with a look and style that is truly all your own

In a sea of makers you are a stand out, and that is what you have to be to thrive in your business

Plus nobody does Tactical Ivory pieces better than you :)
 
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