Bridging the gap - Collectors of Custom and Production

John T Wylie Jr said:
What I have noticed lately is insane prices for "tacticals" ( man I hate even typing that word ). I see so many that are just not ergonomic at all , just have more foo-foo gingerbread materials used. Does that make it a better performing knife ? Nope , but you get a few with deep pockets getting into bidding wars at shows , the price skyrockets and the whole market feels it has to reset.


I will say this , if more ABS/forging guys start crossing over into the "user" category , "tacticals" are gonna get pushed aside once buyers realize what a good should feel like in the hand.

Want to attract new buyers into the custom world that will actually USE the knives ? Give them some entry level offerings that work !! Enough with the bells and whistles.
Click to expand...


I agree and this is what I am trying to say to some point
 
Last edited:
"Want to attract new buyers into the custom world that will actually USE the knives ? Give them some entry level offerings that work !! Enough with the bells and whistles."

+100

Nick Wheeler makes Entry Level Customs that are a real value. I gave one of his bare handled utility knives to a friend and his wife liked it so it's hers now.

Burt Foster with his Darkside series also.


Mitch
 
I have been thinking about this since a few months. In some parts of europe we have the thing going but in other parts it stays the same. Making it even more difficult.
If I find the answer I will let you know...
 
There are alot of good tactical knives.......although I have bees collecting a LONG time, and the prices are getting out of control for even me.
Prices are what they are.....it some one buys them at that price so be it. But in the long run to build a nice collection of handmade knives now is
pretty much cost prohibitive to most people.The guy's with a dozen or so piece's are going to become fewer and farther between, hell a new guy makes a pretty cool knife now and its already 1000.00 ++
just my two dollars worth.
crazy roger.
 
I do collect both production and customs. My productions are mainly Randalls, CRK and William Henry because I have found these to be on par with many customs and I just plain like them, although I must confess I've consider selling some to buy more customs. My customs include both ABS and Guild members plus a few others. I find the topic interesting because I always considered lower cost production knives (kershaw, benchmade, etc) like a gateway drug to higher-end productions, semi-custom and then full-customs.
However, reading post on BF I now see that many (perhaps most) collectors of production don't see it that way. They have no interest in "moving up" to customs, either because they don't see the benefit, need or have never had the opportunity to hold or use a full custom. Some have a complete distain for customs as a waste of money. This is not a negative comment, to each their own. I don't think you can ever convert someone via forum posts or comments, you have to get them to an event or custom show. I have found that most outdoorsmen I know, who truly enjoy the entire experience of outdoors, needs only a small push to buy a custom knife once exposed in person.

There are two great shows coming up in Jan and Feb. The first is the ABS show in San Antonio. It is not a huge show like Blade but all the makers who attend have the opportunitiy to talk a great length about knives. They put on seminars about forging, collecting, etc. I'm not sure why but the ABS does not do much advertising and therefore attendance was not that strong last year (IMHO). I've talked to a couple makers about it and they agree. So, what can we do here? Just promote the opportunity to learn about and see custom knives first hand. Bring a friend to the ABS show. Post comments in all the forums to promote this show.
The second show is the Arkansas Custom Knife Show in Little Rock in February. Another great opportunitiy to see, feel and handle great custom knives AND talk to makers. Again, get as many new people to these shows as possible and some will learn to share our passion for customs, some will not. That's all I know to do.
 
This sounds like a marketing issue/question. I am not in that line of work. Maybe someone here is that line of work and would have some better ideas. But it seems to me that modern America society has a large component of monkey-see, monkey-do, and it seems to me that the quickest and surest way to get a lot of people flocking in one direction is to give them the idea that they are missing out on something that others are experiencing - especially others who they want to emulate. One James Bond movie with a scene involving high end custom knives; one "human interest" story on the CBS Sunday show or PBS; one story line involving custom knives on a top rated TV show like NCIS; a home page article about custom knives and knifemakers on CNN or Fox; magazine articles in Details, GQ, etc. Product placement. That is what drives mass numbers, IMO. Now I readily admit that I have no idea how to do any of that. But I think that is the kind of thing that marketing folk do every day, and a marketing campaign like that might be a useful project for a custom knife collectors' group. But I do not believe that any of us would ever be able to invite enough folks to knife shows to ever move the needle in a substantial way.
 
Product placement on TV. Interestingly, if any of you watch American Pickers they recently picked a roadie for George Jones, Hank Williams and many other famous singers. The guy also made custom knives. He claimed to have give several to famous singers and then sold a few to the American Pickers guys. They were interesting knives, not really my thing and couldn't tell quality but it was an example of what you are describing. He talked a lot about how each one was one of kind and valued them between $150-$350, even for one huge bowie looking thing. Ovbiously not a prime example but interesting none the less.
 
The Virginian said:
This sounds like a marketing issue/question. I am not in that line of work. Maybe someone here is that line of work and would have some better ideas. But it seems to me that modern America society has a large component of monkey-see, monkey-do, and it seems to me that the quickest and surest way to get a lot of people flocking in one direction is to give them the idea that they are missing out on something that others are experiencing - especially others who they want to emulate. One James Bond movie with a scene involving high end custom knives; one "human interest" story on the CBS Sunday show or PBS; one story line involving custom knives on a top rated TV show like NCIS; a home page article about custom knives and knifemakers on CNN or Fox; magazine articles in Details, GQ, etc. Product placement. That is what drives mass numbers, IMO. Now I readily admit that I have no idea how to do any of that. But I think that is the kind of thing that marketing folk do every day, and a marketing campaign like that might be a useful project for a custom knife collectors' group. But I do not believe that any of us would ever be able to invite enough folks to knife shows to ever move the needle in a substantial way.
Click to expand...

I agree with you Ken, however an effective professional marketing campaign to not only entice production knife collectors to step up to customs but to increase custom knife exposure to the mainstream art and collectable communities could cost in excess of a million dollars.
 
Thanks for the mention fellas. :)

I don't have any of this figured out, nor have I made any really smart business decisions. :foot:

As far as catering to some of this swing in interests... I just got lucky in that I'm one of the few "heat and beat" makers that happens to actually like stuff like G10, carbon fiber, 3V, etc and I enjoy making knives that will actually utilize all the blood, sweat, research, and tears that I've put into heat treating, edge geometry, and handle ergonomics.

I have no plans to quit making knives with natural materials, forged from simple carbon steel or damascus, differential hardening, and polishing with baby unicorn fur... ;) :)

But I will continue making the knives with the synthetics and such as well. Hopefully I can keep people happy on both sides of that coin. :)
 
Last edited:
Kevin Jones said:
I agree with you Ken, however an effective professional marketing campaign to not only entice production knife collectors to step up to customs but to increase custom knife exposure to the mainstream art and collectable communities could cost in excess of a million dollars.
Click to expand...

Kevin they could hire me.......I'm cheaper :)
 
NickWheeler said:
Thanks for the mention fellas. :)

I don't have any of this figured out, nor have I made any really smart business decisions. :foot:

As far as catering to some of this swing in interests... I just got lucky in that I'm one of the few "heat and beat" makers that happens to actually like stuff like G10, carbon fiber, 3V, etc and I enjoy making knives that will actually utilize all the blood, sweat, research, and tears that I've put into heat treating, edge geometry, and handle ergonomics.

I have no plans to quit making knives with natural materials, forged from simple carbon steel or damascus, differential hardening, and polishing with baby unicorn fur... ;) :)

But I will continue making the knives with the synthetics and such as well. Hopefully I can keep people happy on both sides of that coin. :)
Click to expand...

Nick you are doing it right

You where one of the first yo show your work thru video

You where one of the first to offer high performance dressed down versions of your work.

You are also known for the high performance aspects of your blades. Not just another pretty face :)

Let me ask a question and I hope you do not mind answering

What is the average age of your customers ?

And since you have been doing the more performance user grade pieces (not that your pretty ones won't work the same) have you noticed that you are enticing a younger audience ?

I know the answer for Jason's work and if my buddy Burt F sees this I would imagine he would also have some pearls of wisdom
 
Last edited:
JParanee said:
Kevin they could hire me.......I'm cheaper :)
Click to expand...

There you go Joe, you can be our 'front man'? :cool: ;) Kind of like our own Alex Baldwin of Capitol One? :foot:

Here's some examples of magazine adds the CKCA Jerry Fisk Cutlery Challenge has been running to help expose custom knives to the mainstream art and collectable communities.
Be nice if someday we could afford to hire a professional add agency.
http://www.customknifecollectorsassociation.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=18532#post18532
 
JParanee said:
Well done Kevin and all associated

Does the CKCA set up at the SCI show ?
Click to expand...

Thanks Joe.
Jerry and his wife Bob have worked so hard on this project.
In fact, Jerry has always worked harder than anyone I know in trying to open new markets for Custom Knives.
If there were ever an ambassador for Custom Knives it would be him.

We don't set up at the SCI we are just spread too thin right now.
 
Kevin Jones said:
Thanks Joe.
Jerry and his wife Bob have worked so hard on this project.
In fact, Jerry has always worked harder than anyone I know in trying to open new markets for Custom Knives.
If there were ever an ambassador for Custom Knives it would be him.

We don't set up at the SCI we are just spread too thin right now.
Click to expand...

I could not agree more :)
 
You don't need an ad agency.
Social media is king and accessible to all.
For example:
CKCA you tube videos.
CKCA vine videos.
CKCA Facebook.
(Substitute ABS or Knifemaker's Guild or any other organization, I'm not picking on anyone here)

Joe is on the right track with his videos.
Instead of promoting one maker, promote the virtues of custom.

Now you have to define what those virtues are.
Uniqueness, investment, quality, performance… I'm sure there are more.

Define your target audience as well.
Existing knifeknuts that are buying production?
Making new knifeknuts out of buyers of other collectables?

Cross borders, knives as art. Get them in shows with sculpture and other 3 dimensional art.
Make feature videos of the events.

Look at what the NY Times did for Kramer.
Coverage of a crossover knife as art/sculpture show might make it there.

This pool of other collectable buyers can't be depended upon to come to a knife show.
The show has to go to them, into their world.

Getting people to cross over from production is a sticky issue because the old bugaboo user/shelf queen argument raises its ugly head.

Custom people get it… investment, resale value, performance, art, the whole 9 yards.

As I see it, production people are, for the most part, users.
It is hard to cross the line from a knife that you can use to one that costs 3-8x more and if you use it the resale will diminish markedly.

The biggest crossover segment that I see is in the low end (price-wise) custom bushcraft knives.
But again, these are users where the buyer wants the uniqueness, prestige and performance of custom.

Grooming these up and coming makers (that have a fan base) will have them bringing their fans up the custom scale with those makers as they grow.
As long as they don't quickly price themselves out of the reach of their fan base.

Big name makers, making affordable users, seems like a good idea.

I honestly think that the biggest hurdle (for the prospective crossover buyer) is that of facing a knife that costs way more than anything you've bought before, with the knowledge that it won't be used.
And/Or facing that knife and actually using it.

It's a big jump.
The first time you get steak sauce stains on a MS knife… it gets your attention.
Or the first scratch…

It did for me :)
 
Last edited:
I think some of the issues can be put down to the preferences for folders over fixed blades. The ABS-style traditional knifemaking community is largely associated with fixed blades, but the tac crowd are largely about folders. That's one issue.

The other issue is steel and materials, as Alex mentioned. Many people don't really understand or aren't interested in the wonders of the forging process, differential tempering and why that's important. They see a hamon and think its just a pretty decoration. But show them a super steel and they totally get that. Spyderco has done a lot to educate people about high performance steels. You just have to observe the popularity of Spyderco sprints to know there is considerable interest there. As to materials, many prefer synthetics because they are zero maintenance, issue-free and, yes, can make a knife look more bad-ass! Synthetics also cost less. Another thought: The last two wars have done to lot to help knife and related companies to move product. Anything associated with the battlefield immediately gets attention, if you don't believe me, see how often it gets mentioned in marketing. Some see the knife as a tool, others as a weapon. We could argue the psychology of it all day long but you can't say it isn't a factor. Some makers have made a living off of it, even though they never went near a battlefield themselves.

To get people into customs, I think custom makers need to be accessible, willing to work with new materials, and maybe even be willing to make folders as well. I've seen a lot of custom makers start with fixed blades, then get into folders. After that, see how many fixed blades they still make. The demand for folders keeps them busy all day long. Of course, it takes a lot to break through these days, what with all the competition. There's only so many ways you can make a knife. But someone like Jeremy Robertson/Cavalera Cutlery went from zero to hero in the space of a year because he tapped right into the market's interests from day one with his folders.
This is not to say that folders are the end all and be all, they aren't. People like Jason Knight and Matt Lamey among many others do very well just making fixed blades.

They must also be willing to market themselves and get the word out, but that's a whole other story and I didnt mean to drone on at such length.
 
Last edited:
Great thread! I live in the Netherlands but I can see the same things over here. The tactical market is huge and I can say that within that market their is a sub-market of people who really use there knives. The last 7 years I've been trying to cater towards the user market. I like to forge, love bowies, love wood etc. So how can you make something that is appealing to this young market and you also like to make? Another trend that has been mentioned in this thread is that the production knives are of very good quality these days. So what can you deliver as a custom knife maker that is worth the extra money? In my case I've focused on a couple of themes: design, technique and sheath system.
Design is very important and as a custom knifemaker you have the benefit that you can come up with different designs,very fast. Having contact with your customers it is possible to make changes that fit your market. I think Jason Knight, Nick Wheeler and Sam Lurquin are some great examples of custom makers who are well known for their design. ABS members but with a different style than the standard ABS bowie (which I like btw).
Technique: I have been thinking what I as a forger can offer that is not readily available. I choose the forged integral, selectively hardened, cera coated with a hardened pommel. This is what I choose, but there are more ways to go. The point is that you have to offer your market something different than is readily available in my opinion.
Last I think that when a custom maker is moving towards the tactical market he has to think about the sheath. Maybe the most under estimated piece of kit.
This is what I have done, I'm not saying this is the way to go, but I do think a custom maker has to offer something more than is already available. I'm sure that the forged blade can have a bright future in the tactical market.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top