Brine quenching 5160?

G

Gene Martin

Joined
Feb 5, 1999
Messages
1,068
I have a friend who is into Japanese knives, especially getting a good hamon. His most recent email related that he had successfully quenched 5160 in a salt brine solution.

And it didn't break.

I don't think he heated the blade pat critical, and was probably way shy to do this. Of course, I may be really wrong, too. It wouldn't be the first time.

For those more knowledgeable than I, is this possible? He clay coated the blade, and quenched it without cracking it.

I've asked him how hot he got the blade and how he knew, as well as whether a file will bite the edge. Haven't heard back yet.

Gene
 
i would say it could happen. but 5160 is a slow quencher. slower than O-1 and i have cracked it in water trying to get a hamon. but anything is possable and he could have gotten lucky. but he will have to provide more detales. i gess i could try it and know for my self
 
CAN..and..SHOULD are different words. You probably CAN do it, but you SHOULD not. Too fast a quench builds enormous stresses in the steel. A crack is likely,other problems may show up later. As you suspected, the whole HT may have been off.
If you want to do 5160 right, use medium speed oil. If you want wild hamon, use a shallow hardening steel a simple alloy, and a fast oil (or water or brine).
Stacy
 
i agree with the above post.... its a oil quencher forsure...

i've done it in warm water... .. its basically an interupted quench.. quench in water and for 1 to 2 sec and out..... then let air cool..
- you can expect to loose blades in water.. ... why as I've never lost a 5160 blade in oil..

so why risk it

G
 
Under-austenitizing is actually an old trick of folks who wish to water quench everything. mete often points out from his years aof experience in steel processing that you want to quench just fast enough to achieve maximum martensite hardness, anything after that is overkill that may result in an early demise of the blade. Increased dislocations and lattice distortion from substitutional type alloys make them very deep hardening, they were developed so industry could be free of the destructive nature of water quenching parts, going back to water will take you right back into the treacherous waters that industry has taken us out of. i f we wish to navigate these waters again we should fall back on the old steels that were designed for these techniques, working with modern alloys will require us to get "creative" which is alwyas a clear sign of forcing a square peg into a round hole. Going beyond maximum martensite hardness by increasing dislocations and other strain factors must by logic incite stressful disaster for the steel, if under-austentizing results in a low stressed blade, logic must dicate that something was compromised in the process. We never get to have our cake and eat it too, the universe doesn't like it. :(
 
Gentlemen,

I agreee with all of the above. That's why I asked the question. I find it hard to believe that he did what he said he did.

I did get more info. He heated a partially formed, thick billet to "orange and a magnet wouldn'r stick to it, then quenched it 5-6 seconds in a salt brine of 180 degress, then took it out and let it air cool." His words. After that he went ahead and finished the blade. He drew temper in the kitchen oven at 400 for 2 hours. After temper he tried the file test, not before.

I've tried to keep him on the straight and narrow. I've been doing his blades in 1065, except for one in 5160. He works with brass a lot and interchanges working terms, and practice, between brass and steel.

I think he's headed for disaster with his blades, but I think he's going to have to learn that for himself. Kevin and Stacy, I had hoped you'd answer. We all agree and I respect your opinions. I guess he's just one of the people who will have to learn the hard way. That will probably begin whern he finds a finished blade inexplicably in 2 pieces, or worse yet, a knife.

Thank you.

Gene
 
Gene, your last post with more description of the process also reveals a bit more. Martensite is loaded with stored energy and is the hardest pahse the metal can achieve, take the steel there too fast for the potential strain and the slightest inconsistancy will invite disaster. There are methods that have been epxerimented with that cool incredibly fast but also very evenly, but this is not going to happen in any quench that involves a vapor jacket.

As per your last post, another technique that is utilized by folks wanting to mis-match their steel with their quenchants is the high temperature interrupt from water. A water interrupt needs to be done at a higher temperature because if you wait for the vapor jacket to entirely dissipate the cooling curve of water is so fast that you will never get it out in time. Interrupting at these higher temperatures will allow the blade to survive slamming into the Ms point because it won't, and there will not be total martensite. Interrupting cooling at these higher temperatures will result in some bainitic transformations. This will obviously reduce the ammount of BCT martensite formed and what is formed will be susceptible to the auto-tempering effect of the slow cool. I would expect a lower overall hardness than if fully quenched in a medium oil, and if combined with under-austenitizing I would be surprised by anything else.
 
Thanks again, Kevin. I suspected that he had an incomplete hardening cycle after his response. His failure to file test before temper only reinforces his perceived results in his own mind.

It comes down to looking for pretty isn't the same as looking for performance. I'll take performance.

Gene
 
I have put decent hamon on 5160 blades but did it by changing how the clay was applied and using a good oil, if you are going to totally change the steel chemistry from what the Japanese traditionally used it stands to reason you will need to adjust other things as well.
 
Hi Sam

i can tell you my experience...
-- unless your lucky enough to live near a city with a decent manufacturing sector... you'll probably find that getting plain carbon steels is a difficult task...... and 5160 is easily had in remote areas.... soooo... ... the irresistible lure of the japanese sword and hamon combined with the available local steel...

tah dah... ...instant headache...


next move will be trying to forge weld 5160 to mild ... with golden results..

Greg
ps... the school of hard knocks.. ... Pshhh
 
Ahh, now i understand a bit better. Greg, 5160 to mild you say? Hmm gonna have to try that. I guess the 5160 with a hamon thing also boils down to a good old fashioned challenge:D. Kevin, makes perfect sense, I imagine it would much easier to use material specific methods.
 
Greg Obach said:
...next move will be trying to forge weld 5160 to mild ... with golden results...
Click to expand...

Greg, althougn I wouldn't mix it with anything lower than .60 C, have you noticed welding 5160 to be a little problematic? I thought it was only me that didn't like the way it welded. I always found the look of the final product to be lackluster as well.

Sam there are two directions from which to make the hammon effect, you can inhibit cooling with the clay, or you can inhibit heating with it, in some instances it is a little of both, but if you are working with a deep hardener inhibiting cooling alone will lead to disappointment.
 
Kevin R. Cashen said:
Sam there are two directions from which to make the hammon effect, you can inhibit cooling with the clay, or you can inhibit heating with it, in some instances it is a little of both, but if you are working with a deep hardener inhibiting cooling alone will lead to disappointment.
Click to expand...

Ahh i see now! I never would have thought to flip the effect around! I always thought it was more of a cooling inhibitor, but to flip it around and use as a heating inhibitor, one of those right there in front of your face kinda things hehe.
 
I guess I am the guy everyone is talking about, I actually brine quenched a 5160 tanto and It did not break.I am new to this forum and as soon as I figure how to attach pics I will send a few of blade . The blade seems to be well hardened .I guess the test for that would be how hard it was to sharpen . believe me it was tough .I only use waterstones I believe they produce a better hamon because of the mineral reaction with the steel .I know lots of people will disagree but, the japanese swear by it and they know a thing or two.Will someone tell me how to attch pics I would appreciate . regards JIM
 
Welcome to Shoptalk, Jim!

There are two ways to approach posting fotos. The first is to buy a paid membership, which allows you to post directly from your computer up to a certain storage level.

The second requires no paid membership. It is accomplished by first posting your fotos at a hosting site. There are pay sites (Fototime) and free sites (Imageshack). There is then a feature which allows you to create a link to that foto, which you can then post here by copying and pasting that link using the little "Image" tag that looks lke a postcard in the typing box when you create a post. Once you decide which route you prefer to take then we can help you further.

Hope that helps. Georgeous country down where you live. My Pa was born in Belgrade and I have friends down in Boss. Johnson Shut-Ins is one of my favorite places.
 
Hi mike , thanks for info I appreciate. thats pretty coincidental my mother was born in belgrade . her name was morgan ask him If knows john robinson . I guess I will buy membership it seems the most logical. For some reason I was made to believe that there was a shortage of useable material to make knives from in this area ??they don't call this town steelville for nothing .We have some of the largest hematite and limonite deposits in the country.I collected some magnetite and very pure hematite My friend gene and I are going to give it a shot at forging some tamehagane from scratch.Gene is the expert on forging so I will let him call the shots.I don,t make too many blades but, I always do the best I can . I spent 11 years in japan while I was in military .I learned how to polish there more than 30 years ago. Of course with old man time sneaking up ,you can get sloppy. thanks ......JIM
 
artcreek said:
Hi mike , thanks for info I appreciate. thats pretty coincidental my mother was born in belgrade . her name was morgan ask him If knows john robinson .
Click to expand...

Alas, he passed a dozen years back. Born in '27. His bro's and sisters moved towards Irondale, Flat River, and Farmington as they grew up. What time I spent out from there as a kid was mostly collecting those damnable red crotch crabs they politely call chiggers while hunting coon with my uncle. Lord, I hated those little bastids. :D

I visited a blacksmith in Belgrade a few years back to see this neat air hammer he made. I can't remember his last name, but he went by Maurice and his smithy was called Lizard Ridge Forge. Great guy. I might still have his card if you're interested.

BTW, there's a production knifeshop down your way, too. The Richardsons, I believe. Can't remember if they're Cherryville or Steelville....
 
artcreek said:
...I only use waterstones I believe they produce a better hamon because of the mineral reaction with the steel .I know lots of people will disagree but, the japanese swear by it and they know a thing or two...
Click to expand...

This is very interesting to me Jim, for I too believe there is a water/chemical reaction going on there and have encountered people who don't even want to consider it, yet will be very quick to point out how different the finish is from water stones. I think there is an abrasive action that gives a dimensional effect to hamon that water stones seem to excel at, but I also have to believe there is a chemical action occurring that affects the surface of the steel, and not only is the hamon slightly different but the way the metal corrodes or resists corrosion seems to be different. We often hear how steel polished in such a manner is touchy because it has more open "pores", this of course is silly since steel does not have anything resembling pores, but it is a good attempt at describing a microscopic surface condition that is different from other polishing methods.

If you ever hear of hematite or limonite deposits nearer the great lakes let me know I am always looking for food for my smelter. I realize this sounds silly from a guy in MI but the good ore is in the U.P. and that is as far a drive for me as many of the surrounding states and one can run afoul of the law poking about many of the mining areas that are touchy about visitors:(.
 
I wonder about the waterstones also. Early in my career I found that I could actually smear the matrix of of a very hard tool steel !.Less chance of that with the abrasives and techniques of Japanese polishing. Abrasives vary in hardness, can wear, fracture to expose new sharp edges or pull out of the matrix. I have the feeling that instead of chemical reaction with the stone and water the better looking hamon is due to the much more gentile action of the stones and techniques. I'd like to see some definitive investigation of that.
 
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