Brine quenching 5160?

My take on the use of waterstones (I have them up to an 8000 Kingston) is exactly what you have suspected,too. They wear away as you grind/polish, thus creating an abrasive slurry that works the steel quite differently than using harder abrasive belts such as Silicon carbide and Zirconia.Diamond abrasives tear out microscopic pieces of steel, leaving tiny valleys behind which diffract the light (and thus destroy a hamon). Hard abrasives in fine grits can smear the steel into a smoother finis, and thus "blend" the boundaries between different structures ( effectively covering up the hamon).Slurries erode the surface by a combination of chemical and superfine abrasive action, thus highlighting the boundary between the adjoining structures (creating the most distinct hamon). The activity of the wet abrasive creates an oxide layer that shows the hamon in its most detailed form.As a Japanese polisher moves through the stones, the stones get softer. This assures that as the polish gets finer, there is only wet sanding ,and no hard abrasive abrasion.The final use of the nugui powder (often powdered iron oxide) accentuates this oxide layer.
Stacy
 
Kevin R. Cashen said:
This is very interesting to me Jim, for I too believe there is a water/chemical reaction going on there and have encountered people who don't even want to consider it, yet will be very quick to point out how different the finish is from water stones. I think there is an abrasive action that gives a dimensional effect to hamon that water stones seem to excel at, but I also have to believe there is a chemical action occurring that affects the surface of the steel, and not only is the hamon slightly different but the way the metal corrodes or resists corrosion seems to be different. We often hear how steel polished in such a manner is touchy because it has more open "pores", this of course is silly since steel does not have anything resembling pores, but it is a good attempt at describing a microscopic surface condition that is different from other polishing methods.

If you ever hear of hematite or limonite deposits nearer the great lakes let me know I am always looking for food for my smelter. I realize this sounds silly from a guy in MI but the good ore is in the U.P. and that is as far a drive for me as many of the surrounding states and one can run afoul of the law poking about many of the mining areas that are touchy about visitors:(.
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Hello kevin ,yes the great lakes have lots of hematite magnetite and copper (raw) prehistoricly speaking the great lakes area is part of a prehistoric indian mining are called hematite belt. kind of strtches from the great lakes south to missouri and east to philadelphia. thae best places to pick up ore is on old indian sites I have hundreds of pounds of very good ore I just picked up. The early amerinds used hematite for tools of every kind including arrowheads it can be chipped and ground it will produce a durable cutting edge as a raw material.The indians recognized the value of a good edged tool or weapon.There is some evidence that they may have smelted copper . lots of copper ingots in the great lakes area. I used some raw ore from michigan to make some copper habaki for a project.I totally agree with you on nutural stones even if the are powdered up and put in a matrix they are still superior to any grinder as far as durbility of shine and finish.The fine stones seem to burnish steel and gives a super polish . It just takes a while to learn proper balance points and angles It is all done with a light touch .Once tou can fell flat balance of area you want to polish you can then apply as much orl ittle pressure as you want.You can exert lots of pressure with properly set stones unlike a grinder.Usually the japanese keep a lot of better stones for themselves.there are some very good processed stone that are actual natural stones but, powdered and put into a matrix.They do a very good job. JIM
 
bladsmth said:
My take on the use of waterstones (I have them up to an 8000 Kingston) is exactly what you have suspected,too. They wear away as you grind/polish, thus creating an abrasive slurry that works the steel quite differently than using harder abrasive belts such as Silicon carbide and Zirconia.Diamond abrasives tear out microscopic pieces of steel, leaving tiny valleys behind which diffract the light (and thus destroy a hamon). Hard abrasives in fine grits can smear the steel into a smoother finis, and thus "blend" the boundaries between different structures ( effectively covering up the hamon).Slurries erode the surface by a combination of chemical and superfine abrasive action, thus highlighting the boundary between the adjoining structures (creating the most distinct hamon). The activity of the wet abrasive creates an oxide layer that shows the hamon in its most detailed form.As a Japanese polisher moves through the stones, the stones get softer. This assures that as the polish gets finer, there is only wet sanding ,and no hard abrasive abrasion.The final use of the nugui powder (often powdered iron oxide) accentuates this oxide layer.
Stacy
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I totally agree stones are the best But it take a couple of years to get balance points correct .I took a course in sasebo ,japan in 1965 it was about a month long they primarely taught me how to hold blade for cetain effect,after that it was all practice. It was not difficult to learn as some would have you believe ,although you need to possess a kind of dexterity. I completly polished a tanto (Hamadashi style) approx six mo. after I took course.It was not very good but Dr misugi was a very good teacher he also had sword and antique store in Sasebo, he was 78 in 1965 sadly he is gone but, not forgotten. Thats how I became interested in japanese art I was looking at some japanese stone arrowheads in his display window,and It was all down hill after that . regards jim
 
artcreek said:
Hello kevin ,yes the great lakes have lots of hematite magnetite and copper (raw) prehistoricly speaking the great lakes area is part of a prehistoric indian mining are called hematite belt. kind of strtches from the great lakes south to missouri and east to philadelphia. thae best places to pick up ore is on old indian sites I have hundreds of pounds of very good ore I just picked up. JIM
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Artcreek, what would you want to put 70 pounds of that magnetite in a Postal service flat rate box and mail it?

I'm still waiting for some magnetite that was supposed to be here by Thanksgiving for my smelting efforts, I may also be interested in buying some copper ore if you would be interested in selling it.

-Page
 
mete said:
... Early in my career I found that I could actually smear the matrix of of a very hard tool steel !...
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I have seen this as well mete. It is not like 62HRC steel is doughy but it tends to gloss over in a way that does not appear as brittle as one would expect. And of course I have taken clear notice of how abrasives courser than 60X can deform as much as cut, acting quite a bit like a chisel plow going through soft earth. I have applied iron oxide and clove oil to highly polished steel and looked for effects under the microscope, so far jsut allowing to be static without any rubbing it has no effect. I would like to try the same with various stone slurries, but I have reason to think it is a complex combination of things ocurring in the polishing not excluding a cleansing action on the surface as new abrasives partticles are applied to the surface.
 
Yes I definately believe that there is a chemical reaction . the white nugura stone is nothing but very fine limestone and limestone is very alkaline I hope that answers that question . I believe I am correct Regards JIM
 
sunshadow said:
Artcreek, what would you want to put 70 pounds of that magnetite in a Postal service flat rate box and mail it?

I'm still waiting for some magnetite that was supposed to be here by Thanksgiving for my smelting efforts, I may also be interested in buying some copper ore if you would be interested in selling it.

-Page
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I have a project planned with gene to make some tamehagane. I might consider getting rid of some after project. I used all my raw copper for habaki's sorry. I do have a source for free stuff but you have to pick it up out of a creek near flint hill missouri a( archaic indian site ).the indians knew what was good and what was not .they made tools from it by grinding and abrading it . it can also be chipped into arrowheads. has a mohs. of around 7 very hard .any thing made from flint also had a counterpart in hematite or magnetite. thanks JIM
 
Jim , alkyline solutions usually don't attack steel but acid ones do...There may be some type of steel/hematite reaction....
 
mete said:
I wonder about the waterstones also. Early in my career I found that I could actually smear the matrix of of a very hard tool steel !.Less chance of that with the abrasives and techniques of Japanese polishing. Abrasives vary in hardness, can wear, fracture to expose new sharp edges or pull out of the matrix. I have the feeling that instead of chemical reaction with the stone and water the better looking hamon is due to the much more gentile action of the stones and techniques. I'd like to see some definitive investigation of that.
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Hello I believe the reactive metals process begins whenever the stone matrix or binder is made from limestone which is alkaline and it kind of etches blade as you work with it .One stone that everyone uses is nugura which is almost pure very fine limestone which in turn will have ( alkaline )effect on blade plus it makes a slurry to polish the blade.The japanes were very aware of this . the best Natural nugura stones are hard to get . JIM
 
mete said:
Jim , alkyline solutions usually don't attack steel but acid ones do...There may be some type of steel/hematite reaction....
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strong alkaline has an effect on stainless steel plumbing fittings ??? why not high carbon steel. My water is highly alkaline it eats up plumbing copper ,brass stainless, I think I am correct but, I could be wrong . alkalinity can be as caustic as any acid. Put a new sword in a bag of wet portland lime and see what happens. anyone else have anything to contribute to this .??? Nugura is very fine limestone. I could be wrong ? ! JIM
 
when search is back up for all, check out the maintenance subforum for posts by yuzuha, very good magnified pics of varying finishes and some discussions of the particle shapes for different abrasives, especially waterstones.
 
Jim, do you get green stains in your sinks ? If you do thats from acid water ! Most metals are attacked by acids ,not alkyline , one exception is aluminum -attacked by both.
 
I do not know about a chemical reaction but the waterstones do open the grain structure rather than smearing. Many of the books and articles I have read talk about this. I have also experienced the smearing effect with dull sand paper. It burnishes the surface, this is how I can tell my paper need to be changed.

Chuck
 
Sam Salvati said:
Interesting Jim, i never knew any of that about the flint and hematite and magnetite.
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at he indians were pretty far advanced when europeans arrived here they new all about copper and but not steel. Although they understood it had some power ! There is someding that is kind of interesting you can probebly find it online . The Red Orchre peoples of the midwest .They used to bury people in large deposits of powdered hematite or ( RED ochre ) In saw a cache of over 330 perfect stone blades totally covered with red ochre for what ever reason is not known? Ialso think it was used for a pottery slip for everyday pots .Turns them dull red .I have 1 point that is is covered with it .I have a spot in flint hill mo that has good pure hematite laying in a creek Just like the japanese used to find it . or the black sand particle that get ground up from water action that most people are familar with. I also have some hematite (Really pure ) dense I brought back from japan about 40 lbs .I would go crazy If I could make a blade from it . I don't have that kind of talent .It was collected at nearly 30 tatara sites in japan and its old and shows signs of being worked > I am not sure what 40 lbs of ore would make ? I was tourning all the old samurai areas most of them had there own furnaces ,If I tried to do that now I would be on CNN news.Back then they could care less !!.... JIM
 
mete said:
Jim, do you get green stains in your sinks ? If you do thats from acid water ! Most metals are attacked by acids ,not alkyline , one exception is aluminum -attacked by both.
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you know I have to agree with you in theory you are correct . But portland lime will absolutly stain new shiny steel metal tools .Maybe we should do a test It may be interesting? JIM
 
It has been a few years (Ok, a lot of years) since my chemist days, but my recollection is that limestone is calcium carbonate (CaCO3) and when mixed with water (H2O) will form an equallibrium of carbonic acid (H2CO3)and calcium hydroxide (CaOH2).It should go something like this: 2H2O + CaCO3 = H2CO3 + CaOH2 .
I'm not sure if the calcium hydroxide will etch the metal, but the weak acid in the solution should.
Stacy
 
hello stacy I thought I was correct. The gentleman who taught me to polish, swore that nothing would bring out hamon like natural stones. what I neglected to mention was nugura stones are not the only ones and many stones have multiple kinds of chemical composition . Lastly when polishing you are using pressure ,heat ,friction, difference in materials ,4 of the seven ways to produce electricity, as static voltage I am sure that also changes some of the structure at the molecular level. I know small amounts of voltage is produced especially if there are in benign salts in stone or stone matrix.But, I am not sure of effect . thanks for chemistry lesson JIM
 
We metallurgists do have things like chemical and electrochemical polishing for our microscope samples !
 
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