Photos BRK 3V Rust/Patina - Is this normal?

Discussion in 'General Knife Discussion' started by temujen, Nov 19, 2019.

  1. jumpstat

    jumpstat

    354
    Mar 9, 2007
    I have a bravo III in 3V, and there is a couple of rust spots that that it came with. There are minor spots, reason being I didnt noticed it when I bought it new. I do use the knife but not that often. What I have noticed is that the rust spot does appear at the same spot even after I cleaned it and polished the rust off. Also I do noticed the the same rust spots developed faster if I kept the blade it its leather sheath. For storage, I just wrap the blade with paper and only use the sheath as and when I do go to the jungle.

    As a fixed blade, I do like the bravo III and even though there is these annoying rust spots. Its my first 3V blade but compared to my 1095 esee 6, the bravo III is much easier to maintain.
     
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  2. temujen

    temujen

    13
    Jan 8, 2019
    Great point, which is why I'm not assuming the worst and/or coming out swinging! While I can definitively say that no moisture aside from warm tap water touched it, and it was dried with a fresh paper towel, reading your example helps me understand that unexpected things can be plausible. Thanks for chiming in, it's not everywhere that someone can tap into the wisdom of someone who has worked with knives for half a century!

    I've reached out to BRK yesterday morning (with pictures for reference) and am currently waiting on a response.
     
    JDRanger likes this.
  3. bikerector

    bikerector KnifeMaker / Craftsman / Service Provider Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Nov 16, 2016
    That seems pretty quick for rust or patina even from a carbon steel based on what you describe you did with it. Especially to the point of rust. I don't believe mushrooms are acidic, based on my years of food chem knowledge, but I could be wrong. Normally, fruit and spicy things are acidic when looking at raw ingredients.

    Are you certain it wasn't there before and that's it's not cardboard glue from cutting the cardboard? Is your soap especially acidic for some reason?

    The fact that it doesn't come off is odd too, almost like a discoloration or imperfection in the blade more than rust or patina. Have you tried using oil or a solvent like WD40 to clean up the spots?
     
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  4. temujen

    temujen

    13
    Jan 8, 2019
    Yes, from the pictures I took of the knife right out of the box, I can't see any (rust)spots and I feel like I would have noticed as I ogled haha. The cardboard that I cut was probably about 8 inches worth, I just wanted to see how sharp it was, not sure how much glue it would have been exposed to but I suppose that's possible. The soap, I'm not sure but I can check when I get home. It was a very brief time of soap exposure since the knife wasn't actually dirty, so that would be surprising if that caused it.

    I'll see what I have laying around when I get home to see if that has any effect - anything else you'd recommend if I can't find my WD40?
     
  5. bikerector

    bikerector KnifeMaker / Craftsman / Service Provider Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Nov 16, 2016
    I use mineral oil or 3-in-1 most often but cooking oils might be okay too. WD40 and 3-in-1 do better with the rust/soil removal part since they have some solvents in them whereas the mineral or cooking oils are just lube. But, sometimes a little oil and light rubbing works too. Use a white cloth or paper towel and see what comes off too. You can sometimes tell pretty easily if it's rust, dirt, or glue that comes off on the towel.

    Your water could be a culprit too if there's something different about your water, really hard or something like that. But, then I would expect you to see similar situations with your other knives.

    You may have a weird acting steel, it just seems really fast for a patina to happen.
     
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  6. temujen

    temujen

    13
    Jan 8, 2019
    OK - I went home and tried vegetable oil with some elbow grease and a paper towel to no avail. Then I tried a linseed oil based rust remover/inhibitor that had worked wonders previously on my shoddily powder-coated bike rack bars on my truck. Was hopeful about this one, but no dice.

    Beyond that, I also tested my tap water by leaving a large, and small drop on the blade for 15 minutes...nothing new developed! Also tried washing it using the same soap and letting it sit for a few minutes before drying off, with no new spots. The original spots and patina patch are still there, but nothing new has developed. I'm genuinely confused now...

    Also, I still haven't received a response from Bark River as of yet.
     
  7. bikerector

    bikerector KnifeMaker / Craftsman / Service Provider Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Nov 16, 2016
    Really odd. Doesn't sound like rust or patina anymore though. Only thing I can think of now is over-cooked steel, but now I'm purely speculating as it's outside my level of knowledge and experience. Hopefully BRK gets back to you with some news.
     
  8. chiral.grolim

    chiral.grolim Universal Kydex Sheath Extension Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Dec 2, 2008
    I've never seen veggie oil used to penetrate and help lift rust, the linseed stuff is supposed to work? WD40 and a brush. But did you expect the knife to develop rust from your water alone in only 15 minutes? I used to own an A2 Bravo 1, it wouldn't patina that fast and we have lots of deposits in our water that would have aided it. In your OP, you state:
    The mushroom cutting. For a more dramatic effect, try onions or tomato - something juicy.

    Here are images of a CPM-3V blade that I partially submerged in white vinegar for 4 hours and then rinsed and dried just to see what would happen (also tested 1095-CV, SR101, 420HC, and 8Cr13MoV).

    [​IMG]

    If you are wondering about the Perma Blue in the back-ground, I also tested that on the tang of that knife and the 8Cr knife just to see what would happen - a very thin layer of blued copper selenide coats the surface where applied even to 8Cr, but it scrapes away relatively easily.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2019
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  9. temujen

    temujen

    13
    Jan 8, 2019
    I've seen that linseed oil based product remove surface rust before, so I was pretty confident. I'll get my hands on some WD-40 and see how that goes, I couldn't find my old can last night. Will report back.

    Maybe I'll test some mushrooms again too, that's the one variable that I haven't re-exposed it to. I'll wait to see what BRK says before trying anything stronger!

    That 3V you posted a pic of is pretty amazing, I know white vinegar is super potent from that chicken bone experiment when I was in grade school!

    Still waiting on a response from BRK, if I haven't heard from them by tomorrow morning, I'll give them a call.
     
    chiral.grolim likes this.
  10. extrastout

    extrastout Gold Member Gold Member

    Mar 10, 2013
    Has Bark River got back to you? I'm trying to get an idea of how their customer service is. I have a preorder out for a Boone 2 A2 but am feeling iffy if Bark River still has not got back to you by now (I understand A2 is the oopsy steel for 3v). They seem are growing really fast and might be pumping out more knives then they can handle with their work force perhaps....bit off more than they can chew. Their production rate seems crazy for their shop size and layout (video below) and I can see mixups happening with the different steels.


     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2019
  11. chiral.grolim

    chiral.grolim Universal Kydex Sheath Extension Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Dec 2, 2008
    BRKT doesn't cut, primary-grind, or HT the steel blanks in house, they receive the ready blanks from the contractors, and only their fancier scale-material isn't pre-made when they get it. Their process is handle assembly and polishing and then grinding the flat-ground bevels to convex (they also now make their leather sheaths in-house, but that is a new thing). In the video, Stewart indicates that they receive contracts (PRE-PAID) for ~40K knives per year. They have ~50 employees, they put out ~160 knives per day spending ~20 minutes total on each knife - think about that the next time you take more than a few seconds to sharpen a knife ;) BRKT has been around since 2001 and Stewart himself has an even longer history. I sincerely doubt that the amount of time spent on each knife was ever significantly longer than it is today.
    Their handle variety and knife photography are their major selling points, and they do know how to produce fairly thin edges, although the dry power-grinding of their convex bevels to thin edges has raised concerns about how it affects the HT of some models, and BRKT has been known for years to put out knives with problematic steel possibly as a result of this process - it may not be very many knives, but they get brought up when folk come across them.
    It is 2019, almost 2020. In 2013, I posted the video below about rubbing off rust-spots on a large, heavily used CPM-3V blade to youtube and in the comments one individual brought up that THEY received a knife from BRKT that was marked as 3V and turned out to be A2. There may be early instances. They have evidently been mis-labeling the steel on their knives for some time, though I am not sure that they have ever mislabeled a more expensive model as a less expensive one. *shrug* Like you typed, A2 is the 'economy' model, you shouldn't have to worry about them giving you something better by mistake.

    In the video below, I just use dish soap and #0000 steel wool to remove the "freckles" from my abused first-run GSO-10. WD40 or a penetrating oil would have worked better to lift the oxidation, but what remains (besides the stubborn sap) are just dark grey spots. In the images above, the GSO-5.1 has an improved HT protocol and a different surface finish, it is far more resistant.



    A link to a thread with images: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads...-with-photos-warning-pic-heavy.1026109/page-2
     
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  12. temujen

    temujen

    13
    Jan 8, 2019
    OK all, I got home, and wasn't able to find any WD-40 so didn't have a chance to try that.

    I ended up calling BRK first thing in the morning since it had been 3 days since I had emailed. I explained my problem and asked them to pull up my email since there were pictures that would be helpful. The young lady I spoke with said it's definitely a warranty issue and to send it in and they'd have it looked at, and see what my options are. She was surprised about the appearance of what seems to be rust/patina in the time frame indiciated, so that's in line with the consensus here in this thread.

    On an unrelated note I asked her if it was common to see/hear about 3V being scratched by inserting it into their leather sheaths. I noticed when looking at the pics I'd included that there were a number of horizontal hairline scratches that showed up after sheathing, and unsheathing a few times. She mentioned that she'd have that looked into as well, so I'm sending in my sheath too. Has anyone had experiences with 3V scratching from sheathing?

    I'll be sending the knife + sheath in tomorrow, and will see what they have to say. Will keep you all updated.
     
  13. chiral.grolim

    chiral.grolim Universal Kydex Sheath Extension Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Dec 2, 2008
    A nice surface finish is easily scratched by grit in material being cut as well as by grit in a sheath, especially a tight fitting sheath, be it leather or kydex, totally normal.
     
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  14. temujen

    temujen

    13
    Jan 8, 2019
    Fantastic, thanks for confirming!
     
  15. chiral.grolim

    chiral.grolim Universal Kydex Sheath Extension Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Dec 2, 2008
    any update?
     
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  16. temujen

    temujen

    13
    Jan 8, 2019
    Nope, I actually only had it sent off today. Assuming it will get there by the end of the week, but given the holiday, I think expecting a response/update from BRK early next week is likely.

    I'll be sure to follow-up once I hear from them-
     
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  17. NYMet

    NYMet

    25
    Aug 5, 2014
    3V has had it's issues with corrosion over the years. In the early days of it being used for cutlery there was mixed powder (other grades of powder) in the structure that caused rapid galvanic corrosion. I still have my custom kitchen knife that will pit massively if left wet or even near anything acidic. This situation could be some of that or possibly some ground in contaminates causing the pitting. I'm leaning towards the first option as good cleaning doesn't seem to be changing anything. Bark River would have no clue about this phenomenon as this is directly related to making the material at the mill. If you can, clean and buff out a pit and look at it under magnification. You may be able to see what is there.
     
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  18. Bluegrass Survival

    Bluegrass Survival Gold Member Gold Member

    49
    Sep 1, 2017
    Heard anything back since you mailed the knife in?
     
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  19. temujen

    temujen

    13
    Jan 8, 2019
    I got confirmation that the shipment was delivered via UPS on Monday(must've gone via pony!) - haven't heard anything yet. Stay tuned!
     
  20. Black Oak Bladeworks

    Black Oak Bladeworks KnifeMaker / Craftsman / Service Provider Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    363
    Jun 5, 2019
    Definitely a weird issue, I have never seen anything quite like that before. Looking forward to seeing what bark river has to say about it. Hopefully you get it resolved!
     

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