Buck Knives and Diminishing Returns.

[jbmonkey]

I don’t know about all of this. A few weeks ago I paid $200 for a new Buck, more than I ever thought I’d pay for a knife. I love the knife, love using it, fidgeting with it, and just looking at it. I don’t buy a lot of knives, but I do plenty of research and read every review I can find before taking the plunge on a new one, especially at this price point or higher. Blade and handle design are beautiful. Materials, fit and finish are as good as I could ever expect. To me it is easily worth every penny I paid for it. This is my first and only Buck so far, but this experience combined with everything I’ve read says this is the kind of quality to expect from them. Whatever I decide my next knife will be, if there’s one in Buck’s lineup, that’s where I’ll be looking first.

some bad ones get through. we've all seen a few here or even gotten one or two or so. I just don't see it being a huge failure like the youtube guy seems to think it is......is there more than there used be, maybe? I dont have counts so just don't know. I do buy a lot of Bucks and more than that youtube guy.........my poor ones quantity from Buck have been no worse than my other brands relative to quantities ive bought.

no factory wants failures out the door....its not cost effective to let failures out. if Buck truly is failing it won't be around for very long.......let's hope that won't happen.....

 

[MT_Pokt]

Curious how long Buck will let this bash thread continue? They pay for this sub-forum to be here, after all.

That being said, if the problem was epidemic I expect there would be a hell of a lot more posts and videos bashing the QC out there.

Here's an example of random sampling...
100 112 slims and 50-60 110 and 112 lites.
Every knife opened, examined, engraved, cleaned, closed, and boxed.
I remember exactly zero that weren't up to expectations.


Hundreds of Buck knives that I have had and moved on and I think the biggest QC disappointment I have is a clip point, elk tine Caper that had so many issues that it is now a letter opener on my desk.
I've received several that wouldn't cut paper, the most recent being an 838 Deploy, but while disappointing, isn't a reason for bashing.

Here's a stack of 110 drop points we're no two grinds are the same. Without having them side by side, you'd never know. And each individually is nearly perfect.




Were there more or less issues in the past? Probably more if you think about it. If someone got a knife in 1988 that had poor centering, non-symmetrical grind, or other flaws, only the buyer, the retailer, and Buck would know. There was no internet to bash to the masses back then.
If anything, QC is probably greatly improved since then because one malfunction can become Hundreds of likes or posts on a forum.

That's my $0.02. Don't spend it all in one place.

 

[GPyro]

This.
Knife manufacturers can have a forum here for free. But they specifically need to contact Spark, the site owner to request it. And they need to supply a moderator.

Moving to Tech Support, the proper place for such questions.

I have over 200 Buck knives.
My only complaint is that I think the marketing department could do a better job describing what the product truly is at point of sale.
There has been a bit of confusion based on their descriptions.

Otherwise, I think Buck does a wonderful job with product quality.
Thanks to mechanization, I also believe value has actually increased.
Tho there are a few I cannot afford, but when you can obtain everything you want you can easily become an entitled butt-head..
.......I struggle with that affliction already.

I don't like the idea of sponsors being able to censor information that they don't like.
"when they own the information, they can bend it all they want".....
.....Nah, that's too despotic for me.
Buck can stand proud based on their merits. And they have a pretty strong fan base.
Truth will prevail.

.....Besides, I pay to be here too.
But it is important to remain civil.

Respectfully,
Thanks.

 

[MT_Pokt]

I don't like the idea of sponsors being able to censor information that they don't like.
"when they own the information, they can bend it all they want".....

That is not what I'm suggesting.

How about this-
You open a steakhouse with your own money. Are you going to allow someone to stand on a table in your restaurant and hold up a sign and chant that their steak was overdone and you shouldn't buy it because since one was overdone, they are all overdone?

Didn't think so...

If Buck didn't pay for this sub-forum, it may not exist. So it is absolutely their prerogative whether these comments are allowed or not. Without proper quantification, is it okay for folks to suggest their personal issue with a tool that may or may not effect its performance should apply to all tools from that manufacturer?

Take the title of the thread, for instance. It insinuates "all Buck knives" have diminishing returns, does it not?

Is this thread not brand bashing in a sub-forum they sponsor?

All that being said, I'm not trying to defend any shortcomings. I'm merely questioning why bashing a brand in the forum the brand pays for is okay.

Respect-

 

[Bastler]

everything in the past is always better than it is now....least our minds seem to remember it that way.......

when i was a kid. we had one car, one tv and it was a heavy clunky box and small screen. my mom hung clothes outside to dry...we had no dryer. we washed dishes in a sink we had no dishwasher. we all shared one bathroom..we didn't have a bunch of them like today. there was no clutter of goods in the house, parents couldnt afford it. could go on for hours about what we didn't have.....now one could argue how great the products were and how they lasted....but they cost a lot and no one could afford to repalce them. had to repair everything when it broke and it wasn't cheap either. broken anything was a huge hit and long time to get it fixed. we just tolerated the wait and the cost cause we had no choice.

 

[MattWRog]

That is not what I'm suggesting.

How about this-
You open a steakhouse with your own money. Are you going to allow someone to stand on a table in your restaurant and hold up a sign and chant that their steak was overdone and you shouldn't buy it because since one was overdone, they are all overdone?

Didn't think so...

If Buck didn't pay for this sub-forum, it may not exist. So it is absolutely their prerogative whether these comments are allowed or not. Without proper quantification, is it okay for folks to suggest their personal issue with a tool that may or may not effect its performance should apply to all tools from that manufacturer?

Take the title of the thread, for instance. It insinuates "all Buck knives" have diminishing returns, does it not?

Is this thread not brand bashing in a sub-forum they sponsor?

All that being said, I'm not trying to defend any shortcomings. I'm merely questioning why bashing a brand in the forum the brand pays for is okay.

Respect-

Manufacturers do not pay for their forums here. See here, https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/why-did-some-manufacturers-want-their-forums-closed.1516258/

 

[Cattaraugus225]

the law of diminishing returns applies to 90% or so of non custom knives in my shallow opinion.

Does it cut stuff? more than a few times without needing a sharpening? Will it field dress a deer? Help get a fire started?

lots of sub $100 knives will do this just as well or better than comparable $400 plus knives.

ymmv

I agree that good enough is good enough. I095 is good enough for me. We buy premium items for form, not necessarily function. It may be a lesson learned growing up poor that $6.00 Starbucks coffee is not six times as good as $1.00 convenience store coffee.

 

[MT_Pokt]

Manufacturers do not pay for their forums here. See here, https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/why-did-some-manufacturers-want-their-forums-closed.1516258/

Congratulations, you have successfully added quality content to the discussion.

So you opened a free restaurant and someone doesn't like the steak... doesn't change my point.
Whether Buck pays or not is irrelevant (despite it being said numerous times here over the years).This sub-forum exists because Buck wants it to.

 

[Uncle Buckmaster]

Ummm... Since when is this a bashing thread? Such was never my intention, I was merely stating my opinion based on my own personal experiences that the Law of Diminishing Returns definitely applies to Buck, as my more expensive Bucks just don't feel like as great a value for the dollar as their less expensive knives do, that's all.

Honestly, that isn't bashing. I still love Buck and have even gone on to buy two more of their knives since this thread was posted, one of which was a Birthday Gift for my Mother, and I'm extremely pleased with both of them.

See the Slim Select with the Red FRN handle? I just ordered it a couple weeks ago, lined up with the rest of my beloved 110s, including the 110 Sport that this thread was started in response to. I'll bet you can't even spot the nick in the blade, can you? Like I said, it's very small, and will definitely come out with use/maintenance.

If other folks are bashing Buck, then that's on them, I'm not, nor was I ever "bashing" Buck Knives. Diminishing Returns exist in any brand, Buck is no exception. All this thread ever was meant to be is my own personal commentary on my experience with a total of two higher end Buck Knives, the 110 Slim Pro and 110 Hunter Sport, feeling like less of a substantial value for the dollar than the Classic 110 Folding Hunter as well as the 110 Slim Select, how is that bashing precisely?

Also, please note that I posted this thread almost immediately after discovering that the blade had a small knick in it, so my impressions were those of a fresh disappointment. Since then, I've calmed down, and if you look I also have a new thread up from a couple days ago in which I was considering getting a Buck 120 Heritage Series in D2 Steel. So obviously I'm willing to give Bucks higher end knives another chance, and am not as disappointed as I once was.

 

[GPyro]

Don't worry about it.
I believe all opinions are welcome.
Even if we don't agree.

There is a long history on this forum of folks attacking others if and when they post anything that could be considered negative about Buck.
Especially to relative newcomers.

Conversation begins with an open mind.

 

[USMCPOP]

everything in the past is always better than it is now....least our minds seem to remember it that way.......

Like my wife?

In my best Rodner Dangerfield voice, "It must have been puppy love. She's a dog now."

 

[Danny Linguini]

Ummm... Since when is this a bashing thread? Such was never my intention, I was merely stating my opinion based on my own personal experiences that the Law of Diminishing Returns definitely applies to Buck, as my more expensive Bucks just don't feel like as great a value for the dollar as their less expensive knives do, that's all.

Honestly, that isn't bashing. I still love Buck and have even gone on to buy two more of their knives since this thread was posted, one of which was a Birthday Gift for my Mother, and I'm extremely pleased with both of them.

See the Slim Select with the Red FRN handle? I just ordered it a couple weeks ago, lined up with the rest of my beloved 110s, including the 110 Sport that this thread was started in response to. I'll bet you can't even spot the nick in the blade, can you? Like I said, it's very small, and will definitely come out with use/maintenance.

If other folks are bashing Buck, then that's on them, I'm not, nor was I ever "bashing" Buck Knives. Diminishing Returns exist in any brand, Buck is no exception. All this thread ever was meant to be is my own personal commentary on my experience with a total of two higher end Buck Knives, the 110 Slim Pro and 110 Hunter Sport, feeling like less of a substantial value for the dollar than the Classic 110 Folding Hunter as well as the 110 Slim Select, how is that bashing precisely?

Also, please note that I posted this thread almost immediately after discovering that the blade had a small knick in it, so my impressions were those of a fresh disappointment. Since then, I've calmed down, and if you look I also have a new thread up from a couple days ago in which I was considering getting a Buck 120 Heritage Series in D2 Steel. So obviously I'm willing to give Bucks higher end knives another chance, and am not as disappointed as I once was.

The same thing can be said about virtually every other product you can buy.

 

[MattWRog]

Congratulations, you have successfully added quality content to the discussion.

So you opened a free restaurant and someone doesn't like the steak... doesn't change my point.
Whether Buck pays or not is irrelevant (despite it being said numerous times here over the years).This sub-forum exists because Buck wants it to.

Glad I could help. Any time

 

[Uncle Buckmaster]

The same thing can be said about virtually every other product you can buy.

Which is precisely what I've been saying all along. I was just surprised by how quickly Diminishing Returns came into play with Buck in particular. I think that I've simply been so thoroughly impressed by just how much knife you can get for so little with Buck that I was being completely unrealistic in my expectations and was essentially expecting to continue to getting a knife that's value exceeded the cost by my own perception, but it began to even out.

So basically, I was being unrealistic, unreasonable, and was expecting Sebenza quality out of the the 110 Hunter Sport.

Honestly though, I never even said that I thought that the 110 Hunter Sport wasn't worth the price, merely that the value of a Classic 110 exceeds that of the 110 Hunter Sport because the Classic 110 is a heck of a knife, and in my mind, by my own perception, 3 Classic 110s for $150 is a better value than a single 110 Sport.

Hopefully that has fully clarified my stance on the subject because that's as far as I'm willing to go. I'm not bashing, I never was bashing, and I'm absolutely flabbergasted by the fact that anyone who actually read through my entire posts could have possibly interpreted anything I said as bashing.

 

[Fixall]

Buck makes incredible knives at around $150 and under.

I ignore the rest of their offerings these days for reasons I've been vocal about in the past, so I won't bring them up again here. I just don't care enough to be passionate one way or another about Buck anymore.

 

[eveled]

Maybe it was the lack of the internet or lack of information in general. But it seems to me that back in the day all I ever saw from Buck was plain jane working man knives.

Some fancier knives were desired and Buck stepped up, and realized we would pay more for fancy.

Then the steel craziness started. People said they would pay more for fancy steel. Buck stepped up.

Now it seems they are trying to see how much extra we are willing to pay for “fancy and premium” and who can blame them?

It must be frustrating for any company to make a product sell it for a reasonable price. Only to see them being sold for 2x more money on Ebay.

Flip side of all of that. Buck went to extreme lengths to keep production costs down. modern machines moving out of California etc. Now they’ve cut all the corners as costs go up they are passed on to consumers.

There are a lot of pieces to the puzzle. I don’t think Buck has done anything wrong. Its up to the consumer to justify how much they are willing to spend on upgraded products.

Frankly I’m happy we are having this conversation instead of talking about the demise of another great American knife company.

 

[mnblade]

Very interesting thread.

All I know for sure is that the 112 and 110 slim selects are amazing value for an American-made folding knife in this day and age. Truly a great option for a working guy who just needs a pocketable tool he can count on, and afford to replace if (God forbid) it gets lost. You can bang the heck out of 'em on the job site or in the field, and bring back the edge with a few minutes on a simple stone.

 

[Fixall]

Very interesting thread.

All I know for sure is that the 112 and 110 slim selects are amazing value for an American-made folding knife in this day and age. Truly a great option for a working guy who just needs a pocketable tool he can count on, and afford to replace if (God forbid) it gets lost. You can bang the heck out of 'em on the job site or in the field, and bring back the edge with a few minutes on a simple stone.

You know…. I think that might be part of the problem I have with Buck’s higher end offerings.

When it comes to value, Buck is about as competitive as it gets when it comes to folders and fixed blades under $100 - $150. I guess I expect that same value out of their $250 - $350 knives, and it’s just not there. Their $350 knives have to a exact same level of fit and finish as their $50 knives in my experience. It can be a hard pill to swallow.

 

[bucksway]

Back in the day the Hemi option was six seven hundred dollars when the basic car was only 3-4 thousand. The 440 six-pack was a $250.00 bump and many automotive writers said you were crazy to pay that much more to get the Hemi motor for such a small increase in performance. I think that's what we have here with Buck. Think a $50.00 110 is a fantastic bargain? Yes it is..But is a $300.00 LE 6 times better? In any measure of performance? Nope but if you wanted a Hemi ya paid for it and if you want a fancy 110 you pay the price.

 

[capnsutton]

I bought my first Buck 110 when I was ten years old for $20.00 (1972). This is back when they made knives in the El Cajon, California factory. At that time these knives were difficult to get and they cost far more then their competitors. Each one was made by an individual so the grinding and finishing had subtle variation. The quality and design were were recognized as field worthy increasing the demand. Individuals serving in the military in Vietnam were commonly seen carrying the Buck 110 and the 119’s since they resisted rust and corrosion as compared to high carbon military issue knives.

I compare the workmanship and overall quality of my early 1970’s 110 to the contemporary brass and ebony counterpart as equal. The finishing is more precise on todays versions because of CNC machining and automation, but I’m nostalgic for untreated wood and hand ground blades. The leather sheath seems better stitched and higher quality of leather, but the newer versions probably last longer and resist weathering better. In other words, Buck heirloom quality has not declined from what I can tell.

When I saw the Green Micarta handle and S35V blade, I didn’t hesitate to pick up the 109 and 102. Absolutely beautiful perfection and priced right.

The Buck 110 has been retired for many years, but I still use it around the house. I’ve had it for fifty years, and don’t want to lose it. The Chris Reeves Large Inkosi has taken its place on my belt. I keep an old vintage Buck 119 from the 70’s in my car kit bag, but if it were a daily user, I would upgrade to the S35V - Micarta in a heart beat.