Buck Knives article 1969

pondoro said:
OK, I believe Jeff. I'm an engineer who works with expensive metal products. Let me start by saying that engineers do not know everything. I am amazed and horrified at the idea of hitting every blade against a bolt. Just do it once and take a picture. I'm not saying that they didn't do it. My fear as an engineer would be that some knives develop invisible damage that would reduce their lives down the road. Modern engineers would never allow this. But it worked for Buck. A non-engineer started the company and developed a test that he liked. The test is impressive. It apparently did not cause invisible damage. The test was "indicative of a high level of testosterone." (I have self censored my original wording but I am sure you get the drift.) It established Buck's reputation. Thus the capitalistic system and a gutsy knife maker allowed a company to grow and thrive in an area where the customers would have been very unforgiving of bad knives. This is a great story: practical hands-on design skills, gutsy testing and an amazing belief in the product.
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Like you, I was amazed and horrified by the idea of hitting every knife edge against a bolt.

Unlike you, I don't believe it happened.

Yes, maybe a few knives were driven through a carefully chosen bolt......but the level of testosterone required to make this a test of every knife simply could not exist. The losses would have been too great. A steel hammer hitting the spine of a steel knife and pitting a fine edge against a steel bolt would inevitably result in damaged knives.

I'm sure the legend does exist......and romance is strong in creating legends, but the idea that every knife was tested this way is simply too far-fetched.

In the Buck's own book, "The Story of Buck Knives," driving a blade through a bolt (ad on page 18) is mentioned and discussed (page 31) only as a superbly successful marketing strategy.......never once mentioned as an ongoing test for knives. In fact, they say there was a knack to cutting bolts and not everyone could do it.

I'll go with that rather than romantic memories.
 
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J Hubbard said:
The engineer (who I have known for 30+ years) started in 73. So we were still hitting the bolt then. We would give it a good smack on the spine and if the edge chipped, it was rejected. We didn't cut through the bolts. I'm sure bolts were re-used. I too think we stopped when we went to 425mod, but not sure on that.
Non-believers can poo-poo it all they want.
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It makes sense to me that the testing stopped when the blade steel was switched from 440C to 425M. 440C has twice as much Carbon and can be hardened to a higher Rockwell C rating.
Puma tested many of their blades using a Rockwell hardness tester. They put an arrow shaped sticker on the blade that pointed to the indentation made by the tester. A hammer/bolt test would be much quicker and cheaper than the Puma drill.
 
I love this photo. Courtesy of our moderator, 300Bucks...:)

Bolt.jpg
 
That's a really nice old ball peen hammer.

I've done that. Several of us have. All you need is a hacksaw.

It creates a really nice and unique Buck oriented display station for a knife.

Usually done with a 119, 120 or 124........but I understand that 300Bucks has a fondness for the slippies.

:D
 
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tiguy7 said:
It makes sense to me that the testing stopped when the blade steel was switched from 440C to 425M. 440C has twice as much Carbon and can be hardened to a higher Rockwell C rating.
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Actually, the 440C, 425MOD and 420HC are not much different in hardness.

The old 440C may have hit 60 more often, but in practice, they all usually end up at 58 to 60 (Chuck's Rule).

If a change in attitude toward the bolt cutting occurred it was more likely due to the gradual change in edge geometry away from the heavy edge on the early 440C to the finer and easier to sharpen edges right up to "Edge 2000" at the turn of the Century.

The anxiety about customers trying to cut bolts probably increased gradually as the changing Buck knife edge geometry gradually produced finer and finer edges that were easier to sharpen (but less likely to survive bolt cutting).......right up to the excellent Edge 2000 that we now enjoy.

So, the change was probably more about edge geometry than hardness.

Edge geometry changed a lot.

Hardness changed very little if at all.
 
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Here's some info from Joe Houser that may shed some light on this interesting discussion.

"One thing I do know about our 440C, 425mod, and 420hc is that we get the same basic rockwell out of each of them. 58 to 60 was the range and that was Chuck's law, never to be trifled with.
When we were using 440C the edge geometry was a lot diferent than our Edge 2000 geometry. The comment most often heard during the 440c years was that Buck knives held a great edge, but boy was it hard to get that edge on.
Those earlier knives had an extra operation in production that we called a "flat edge".

Take a look at a new 110 from back then and you can still see a faint line running the length of the edge. That edge was slightly radiused to, thus lending to the hard to resharpen comments because how do you lay a blade edge flat on a stone if the edge is not flat to begin with? Those blades were thicker through the hollow grind which made meant they could stand up to more prying, but again, made it a lot harder to resharpen as you got higher up in the blade.
VERY tough edge and tough blade for sure but our customers were telling us that wanted something they could sharpen. Gradual changes in the blade and edge geometry took place over the years to address this need.
Off the top of my head I think we did away with the flat edge operation before we went to 425mod.
Before we changed from 425mod to 420hc, Chuck had to be convinced that we would still get our 58-60 hardness. We did numerous tests in heat treat, and backed them up on our C.A.T.R.A. machine, a device that tests several aspects of an edge, before we made the switch."
 
Being a huge Buck Knives fan and collector ,I once took a 440c 2dot 110 and did my own test ,I wanted to cut a bolt in half myself ,I used a 2 dot I won real cheap and it was not new or even close to new when I started with my test ,it was given a fresh cover edge I like to put on 440 c Buck 110s.

I completely ruined the knife I will admit my stupidity,I just didn't understand what Buck did with their test,until some chats with Joe Houser set me straight.I actually cut the half inch stainless bolt completely in half ....Which is NOT what Buck did in their edge tests.

When I was done my test the knife was not useable or repairable and the bolt was in 2 halves.

I absolutely believe Buck used this method to test edge hardness,Joe has confirmed it and also Jeff Hubbard as well.We need to remember they never had all the high tech things they use now to test edges.They did it the old fashioned way.

I was 3/4 of the way through the bolt when I broke the lock bar,and I had to use several sections of the blade ,Also the first couple whacks barely rolled the edge on that ol 440c,but then I got aggressive.

I've put my 110s against many fixed blades at deer camp,and they hold their own everytime .
 
RAZORBLADES said:
Being a huge Buck Knives fan and collector ,I once took a 440c 2dot 110 and did my own test ,I wanted to cut a bolt in half myself ,I used a 2 dot I won real cheap and it was not new or even close to new when I started with my test ,it was given a fresh cover edge I like to put on 440 c Buck 110s.

I completely ruined the knife I will admit my stupidity,I just didn't understand what Buck did with their test,until some chats with Joe Houser set me straight.I actually cut the half inch stainless bolt completely in half ....Which is NOT what Buck did in their edge tests.

When I was done my test the knife was not useable or repairable and the bolt was in 2 halves.

I absolutely believe Buck used this method to test edge hardness,Joe has confirmed it and also Jeff Hubbard as well.We need to remember they never had all the high tech things they use now to test edges.They did it the old fashioned way.

I was 3/4 of the way through the bolt when I broke the lock bar,and I had to use several sections of the blade ,Also the first couple whacks barely rolled the edge on that ol 440c,but then I got aggressive.

I've put my 110s against many fixed blades at deer camp,and they hold their own everytime .
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At least you got the bolt cut in half. nice. lol
 
RAZORBLADES said:
Being a huge Buck Knives fan and collector ,I once took a 440c 2dot 110 and did my own test ,I wanted to cut a bolt in half myself ,I used a 2 dot I won real cheap and it was not new or even close to new when I started with my test ,it was given a fresh cover edge I like to put on 440 c Buck 110s.

I completely ruined the knife I will admit my stupidity,I just didn't understand what Buck did with their test,until some chats with Joe Houser set me straight.I actually cut the half inch stainless bolt completely in half ....Which is NOT what Buck did in their edge tests.

When I was done my test the knife was not useable or repairable and the bolt was in 2 halves.

I absolutely believe Buck used this method to test edge hardness,Joe has confirmed it and also Jeff Hubbard as well.We need to remember they never had all the high tech things they use now to test edges.They did it the old fashioned way.

I was 3/4 of the way through the bolt when I broke the lock bar,and I had to use several sections of the blade ,Also the first couple whacks barely rolled the edge on that ol 440c,but then I got aggressive.

I've put my 110s against many fixed blades at deer camp,and they hold their own everytime .
Click to expand...

But you ended up with a good story. Too bad about the knife...

I will be the first to admit that the Buck picture implies that you can just go around cutting bolts in half. Now we know what we always should have suspected - don't do that.
 
RAZORBLADES said:
Being a huge Buck Knives fan and collector ,I once took a 440c 2dot 110 and did my own test ,I wanted to cut a bolt in half myself ,I used a 2 dot I won real cheap and it was not new or even close to new when I started with my test ,it was given a fresh cover edge I like to put on 440 c Buck 110s.

I completely ruined the knife I will admit my stupidity,I just didn't understand what Buck did with their test,until some chats with Joe Houser set me straight.I actually cut the half inch stainless bolt completely in half ....Which is NOT what Buck did in their edge tests.

When I was done my test the knife was not useable or repairable and the bolt was in 2 halves.

I absolutely believe Buck used this method to test edge hardness,Joe has confirmed it and also Jeff Hubbard as well.We need to remember they never had all the high tech things they use now to test edges.They did it the old fashioned way.

I was 3/4 of the way through the bolt when I broke the lock bar,and I had to use several sections of the blade ,Also the first couple whacks barely rolled the edge on that ol 440c,but then I got aggressive.

I've put my 110s against many fixed blades at deer camp,and they hold their own everytime .
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The key thing in this knife vs. bolt demonstration is THE BOLT.

Bolts were chosen carefully........soft bolts.

You apparently chose a hard one.

Really should be done with at least a 119........the 110 is a bad choice, too.

:D
 
RAZORBLADES said:
Being a huge Buck Knives fan and collector ,I once took a 440c 2dot 110 and did my own test ,I wanted to cut a bolt in half myself ,I used a 2 dot I won real cheap and it was not new or even close to new when I started with my test ,it was given a fresh cover edge I like to put on 440 c Buck 110s.

I completely ruined the knife I will admit my stupidity,I just didn't understand what Buck did with their test,until some chats with Joe Houser set me straight.I actually cut the half inch stainless bolt completely in half ....Which is NOT what Buck did in their edge tests.

When I was done my test the knife was not useable or repairable and the bolt was in 2 halves.

I absolutely believe Buck used this method to test edge hardness,Joe has confirmed it and also Jeff Hubbard as well.We need to remember they never had all the high tech things they use now to test edges.They did it the old fashioned way.

I was 3/4 of the way through the bolt when I broke the lock bar,and I had to use several sections of the blade ,Also the first couple whacks barely rolled the edge on that ol 440c,but then I got aggressive.

I've put my 110s against many fixed blades at deer camp,and they hold their own everytime .
Click to expand...

The steel used in garden variety bolts and nails has a low Carbon content and is quite soft. You may have fared better in your test if you had used a non-stainless bolt. The stainless stuff has Chrome Carbides in it which contribute to slice resistance.
 
pondoro said:
I will be the first to admit that the Buck picture implies that you can just go around cutting bolts in half. Now we know what we always should have suspected - don't do that.
Click to expand...

If I remember correctly, the warranty paperwork that came with, my old two dot 110, that I bought in 1975, said: That bolt cutting, was a test only to be done by Buck engineers, and trying to cut a bolt with your knife would void the warranty.

O.B.
 
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