Buck!!! What were you thinking?

bbb4 said:
My only REAL objection is the lack of Disclosure. These foreign made models are not indicated as such in the Buck catalog and, as many of us have discovered, mail-order and online sellers aren't to "open" about it either.

My personal experience so far has revealed the following Buck products made outside the USA: Walmart Cadet, Mayo Northshore, Utility Shears and leather sheaths from Mexico. Months ago, I asked for a list to be posted here in the forums but so far my request has been ignored.
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Gary007 said:
I wonder how true this would be for a Harley.
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geothorn said:
.
I've checked out almost two hundred web sites through a "Buck Diamondback 4.25" search at Google, and none of them, not even the Buck Knives web site, mentioned that the Buck Diamondback knife is either imported or made in Taiwan. One site,
http://www.hardhatusa.com/itemdetail.asp?itemid=B-471-BK
even advertises the Buck Diamondback as "Made in U.S.A."

There are going to be alot of people buying a Buck knife during this holiday season,... Buck has such a history of being 'Made In America.' I wish that we could turn back the tide ..., so that none have to be produced overseas,..

GeoThorn
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J Rummerfield said:
I like the idea of listing in the catalog where they are made. I will pass it along.
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ok enught quotes as a good troll i have done some homework and here are two links that say it all.... i look foward to a reply or comment to this post by buck knives...

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/buspubs/madeusa.htm
http://www.ftc.gov/os/1997/12/epsmadeusa.htm#e8

these sites are .gov sites and state the law concerning
made in usa
and implying made in usa!

basicly it is that if there is any referance to usa or american worker,americian quality or americian standords or a plant in the usa includeing a picture as a plant or location made at (El Cajon facility or soon in Post Falls) in any of the advertiseing or catloges that a discloser Must be made as to what is or is not made in the usa.... this even applys if buck and usa appear together as in on a knife shown in the catloge! yep no smoke being blown up any lower backsides here! (use your own a's and s's)
its the law and i hope buck is not in volation as the one link listed above seems to be....
ps i also spoke to the other USA icon company mentioned- harley or rather 'hardly dave-a-son usa?' paul james, sinor manager for coumanations main office mule-walky wi. they are more embarresed then buck is about for'en parts and stuff and are in lots of volation per what i understand and are only assumbled in the usa and he is verrry adept at sidesteping the usa issue and then clames ingroence if pressed!! also honda= as all of their bikes do not meet the made in usa they had to stop advertiseing the made in usa at all to avoid the implyed statue
'nuft said.... thinking hard and tireing...time for troll to sleep...zzzzzzzzzz
 
Hi 334dave --

Since you quoted me in your posting I felt obligated to reply.

While it's true that out of almost 200 web page links that I took, looking to see if any of them mentioned that the Buck Diamondback 4.25 was made in Taiwan, none of them, even the Buck Knives' site, ever said so. Only one of those almost 200 links, http://www.hardhatusa.com/itemdetail.asp?itemid=B-471-BK , stated that the Diamondback 4.25 was "Made in U.S.A."
That web site is obviously wrong, to those of us that know that the Buck Diamondback 4.25s are made in Taiwan, but that isn't Buck Knives fault, that a reseller of their products has made a mistake, probably accidentally, on their web site. However, that site is misleading it's customers, through that mistake, and it may come back and bite that company, and Buck, on the backside.

My Buck Diamondback 4.25 boxes have "Made in Taiwan" as a part of their UPC symbol. The Wal*Mart exclusive Buck Model 728 'Deer Hunter Collectible' (http://www.walmart.com/catalog/prod...e=21&dept=4125&path=0:4125:120218:4141:121603) packaging has "Made in China" printed on the box. In my opinion, that fairly simply states that those knives weren't made in America. True, some might *assume* that the "Made in China" printing on the Buck 728's packaging may mean that it's only the packaging that was done in China, and not the knife, but that would be the wrong assumption. If you'll notice, the Wal*Mart page on the Buck Model 728 states "Assembled Country of Origin: Imported" and "Components Country of Origin: Imported."

334dave, if someone shopping for a Buck knife assumes that every Buck knife is made in America, perhaps like that web site's mistake with the Diamondbacks, then they are wrong. I can't say that I've ever seen anything that states that all Buck knives are made in America, but, I have to admit, I assumed it too, until I saw that "Taiwan" stamped into my Diamondbacks' blades, and that one caught me off-guard. Blind-sided may be more like it.

In my opinion, it would behoove any company producing or assembling or importing anything from overseas to state it, front and center, and be behind their products, rather than shocking people with it. I had assumed that all Buck Knives were made in America, I was wrong, and it took me by surprise. Surprises like that aren't the ones I would prefer.

GeoThorn
 
I'm not gonna buy only the packaging was made in china idea.

Also I would like to have explained to me how, with God as a senior partner, (see web site) that business can be conducted in China, when some choose to boycott China due to it's prescution of Christians.
 
J Hubbard said:
Every Offshore knife comes through my QA dept and is held to the same high standards that we hold our own production. We work proactivly directly with our factories to teach them how to make our knives. We do everything possible to ensure that no matter what the country of Origen, you will get a great product.

Jeff Hubbard
QA Supervisor
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Sorry Josh, I have read this too fast and attributed it to you.
 
Since I'm feeling froggy this morning, I'll throw in a couple of things more.
1) Knife Nutts are only a very small portion of the overall sales. These oversea knives are not targeted to us.
2)They should do better at representing the origen of the knives.
3) NO ONE complains that Sal makes alot of his good knives over seas or AG Russell either.
No rant here,just a couple of points I've put together.
 
guy g said:
1) Knife Nutts are only a very small portion of the overall sales. These oversea knives are not targeted to us.
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Its not about "us" as knife nuts it should be about "us" as Americans. Now are Americans a small part of overall sales ? I don't know.
Now I am not saying that a item made elsewhere is garbage. I do buy items made elsewhere, spyderco and victrons (swiss army knife) knives come to mind. But when I buy a BUCK knife I dont want to look to see where it was made. Its Buck damn it, not Ford, Chevy, or Dodge. And as I stated in a earlier post they can make display boxes and sheaths where ever. I want my buck knife made it the USA. JMO

OK done with my rant and didnt mean to single you out "guy g". It is just an easily pressed buttom of mine.
 
I think you have all glancingly hit on the real problem. The real problem (as I see it anyway) is Wal-Mart and their ilk. Because they buy in ENORMOUS quantities, they feel they can dictate price to the manufacturer. As a result, they demand a price so low, that it cannot be made in the USA. This practice really got bad after Sam Walton died and the kids took over the business. Does anyone out there besides me remember when Wal-Mart prided itself on buying from American manufacturers? What happened to that practice? I think the kids decided to put profits ahead of doing what is right by the American manufacturing sector. I'll tell you all this... I for one will not give another dime of my money to those SOBs at Wal-Mart. They have ruined small town mercantile areas across this country, helped the Bush administration ship Amercan jobs overseas, and forced fine American companies like Buck to have some of their products made overseas.

To those of you who have been saying less than complimentary things about Buck's move to limited overseas manufacture and assembly I can only ask this... Who made them do it? Does anyone honestly believe that Chuck Buck wanted to move some of his manufacturing out of the US? After all that I have read in trade and industry publications, and in Tom Ables' book, I can't believe it for a second. Wal-Mart and companies like them forced that move. If you want to protest this move, don't quit buying Buck knives, quit buying anything from companies that force their suppliers to go overseas in order to keep their profits high.

Sorry about the rant,
BaronDaddy
 
fashionbiff, no offense taken. this is an interesting an sensitive topic. i'm toward tellling origen and not tellimg me the quality is the same . but i also feel Buck is singled out a bit for doing what other companies have been doing for years. people have the option of not buying the products..I have bought some of the Taiwan made items but draw the line at the China made ones. Personal choice.
Want to have some fun? go to your grocery store and look at the produce. Depending on time of year alot of it is imported. Nothing much worse than going to the port in Seattle and picking up a load of apples from New Zealand.
 
hey guy g-

I just made a salid for Karen and I and as usual the bel peppers were from Holland, the geen onion from Mexico, and the tomatos from Canada.

How the hell do you ship bell peppers from Europe cheaper than a guy in a green house can grow them in the U.S. of A.?

I also like to fry up eggs in the morning with cornbeef hash. All the cornbeef hash is from Argentina.

If the rest of the world gets to hating us enough they won't need guns to kill us off! Just stop shipping us food.

Not good, not good!!!!
 
Jackknife, you are absolutly right!! How was the salad? I'm a big salad eater.
 
Romain lettuce, cucumber, roma tomatos, yellow and red bell peppers, sliced avacados, some sweet vidallia onion, and thin sliced smoked salmon.

Topped off with a little cold pressed extra virgin olive oil and a splace of Balsamic viniger.

In other words- perfect. But the best part was the company. With the last kid out of the house, Karen and I are enjoying candle lit dinners and time alone again.
 
Thats great! Being together like that. The salad sounds good too!
 
To slightly summerize this thread, started on July 29, 2003, almost a year and a half ago, it seems that most people have been surprised to find that Buck Knives is producing and importing several of their knives and sheaths from Taiwan and China. Of all of those people, some believe that all Buck Knives should be made in America and nowhere else, while others seem to be "ok" with it, citing what they surmise are Buck Knives' business necessities in these days of the 'Global Economy' and megastores like Wal*Mart.

I think that there's another way to look at it. What if Buck Knives had decided not to produce and import products from overseas? What if Buck Knives was proverbally shoved into a corner and it became a "do or die" question? It's quite possible that Buck Knives' decision to open production facilities overseas has allowed the company to remain vital *only because* the business managers were open-minded enough to see that it was needed, and took that step.

Personally, I'm glad that I can still purchase "USA" Buck Knives, and that may not have been possible today if Buck hadn't allowed some of their products to be manufactured elsewhere. We can avoid buying the "Taiwan" and "China"-stamped Buck Knives, if that's one's choice, but I don't know that Buck had any choice. "Do or die" is a powerful decision to have to make and I believe that Buck made the right one.

GeoThorn
 
i can go in any store with knives and buy lock backs or fixed blades with another country on them CHEEPer then buck sells them for with there name on them... are they the qwuality of buck twian... no... buck, to me at least is a americian icon company. it was jest a shock to open a knife box with buck on it and 4'en came out... and i was mad... i still dont like it. buck twian is not a bad knife and is better then most from twian but trouth is that there are other Jest As High Quality knives for less $ then buck twian. so even wtih japan a buck is more then others.... i have craftsman tools and 'other tools" i had buck knives and other lender knives... i dont care that a company has stuf made in japan and buck doing that to me has put them in the same catorgy as a lot of other knife makers... and they no longer are at lease to me an icon company... will not collect any non usa buck and i still like what is made in usa and i wish i could unload the japan buck i have even tho it is a good knife.... maby ebay...
hay - i made the effort to look up the usa law and post it and noted that no one has commented that they read it at all!!! humm does any one know if buck mentions: usa company, americian quality, showes a picture of the plant,displayes a usa flag in any of its advertising --- if so then every, EVERY item must be clearly labled as to country made in!!! or they have broken the LAW that means that the sheath from mexioco must be labled and the box with the 110 made in the usa can NOT say usa on the box! if the mex sheath is in it!!!
hummm from the buck web site:
"Buck Knives is a strong corporate entity, with a manufacturing facility covering 4.5 acres under one roof in El Cajon, California, just east of San Diego. But when the first Buck knife was made in 1902, it was a young Kansas blacksmith apprentice named Hoyt Buck who used his imagination to find a new, better way to temper steel so it would hold an edge much longer."
this right here is a volation of the law . in referanceing that they have a plant in the usa makeing knives then EVERY knife they show has to have contry of origan stated or a bold DISCLAMER that only some of the knives are made in the usa and the remander made NOT IN THE USA. in this process they have left them selves open to damages by a company that does only make there knives in the usa... as being injured by buck implying that all knives are made in the usa. now this is the only one thing i found on their site and i did not look any further or at a catloage as i do not have a new one.... but as i read the law and understand it the above is my personal opion but if i have one who else does...
ok - does this wualifity me as a troll starting stuff? comments on the links welcome... 334dave
 
Just some comments,

A knife made in China PERHAPS is as good as any made in Taiwan, or MAYBE better. Remember, Americans and others tried to have knives made in China once before, but found the quality cruddy. They learned that it took constant supervision to keep the quality up. Well, they are doing that now, and no doubt the factories there have newer, more high-tech machinery than Taiwanese plants. Does that mean a Buck Knife made in China is ok with me? Heck no.

Someone brought up the persecution of Christians in China. That's a valid point and a good argument for not buying their products. May I also bring up the use of convict labor in China? I just sold and mailed a knife to Austrailia... one of the restrictions is that no products made by prison labor can be imported into the land down under. Can China made Bucks be imported by Australians? Chinese prisons are filled with political prisoners, too; those seeking democracy for their country. This makes J.Rummerfield's comments about democratic Taiwan (our friend) giving Red China the finger all the more disingenuous.

And finally, it is my understanding that all Chinese manufactoring takes place under the watch of 'Norinco', a department of the Chinese military. It is the military of Red China that may be used, someday, to retake Taiwan. Are we and Buck buying them the ammo to do the job?

And finally... Doing business with Wal-mart and China did Schrade cutlery no good, in the end. I hope Buck does not go down the same way.
 
334dave said:
hay - i made the effort to look up the usa law and post it and noted that no one has commented that they read it at all!!! humm does any one know if buck mentions: usa company, americian quality, showes a picture of the plant,displayes a usa flag in any of its advertising --- if so then every, EVERY item must be clearly labled as to country made in!!! or they have broken the LAW that means that the sheath from mexioco must be labled and the box with the 110 made in the usa can NOT say usa on the box! if the mex sheath is in it!!!
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334dave --

Thank you for looking up the Federal Trade Commission's "Complying with the Made In the USA Standard" web page. Have you had your lawyer look through it, to see if s/he thinks that Buck Knives is violating those standards?

I've read some of that legalese mumbo-jumbo that is meant to be read by lawyers, and I believe that Buck Knives is satisfying that standard. The FTC's "all or virtually all" requirement is based on cost.

True, inside a Buck Knives 110 box purchased at Wal*Mart, there are three items, a Buck 110 knife, a Buck Knives Warranty and Registration sheet, and a cordura nylon sheath, Made in China. However, the FTC is more interested in the cost of each item in that box, rather than just the knife being Made in USA and the sheath being Made in China. From my reading of the FTC's "Complying with the Made In the USA Standard," http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/buspubs/madeusa.htm only if the knife and the sheath cost close to the same amount to produce would Buck Knives be required to state, on it's box, that it wasn't Made in USA.

I don't know how much it costs Buck Knives to produce a Buck 110 and I don't know how much it costs a Chinese factory to make a cordura nylon sheath, but I would have to imagine that the Buck 110 costs at least ten times as much to manufacture as the sheath. That satisfies the FTC's "all or virtually all" requirement, in my non-lawyerly opinion. In other words, Buck Knives can state "Made in USA" on a 110 Folding Hunter's box because producing the knife costs Buck a theoretical 90% more than producing the sheath, 'Made in China.'

Good trolling job, but baseless, in my opinion.

GeoThorn
 
geothorn said:
334dave --

Thank you for looking up the Federal Trade Commission's "Complying with the Made In the USA Standard" web page. Have you had your lawyer look through it, to see if s/he thinks that Buck Knives is violating those standards?... and a cordura nylon sheath, Made in China. However, the FTC is more interested in the cost of each item in that box, rather than just the knife being Made in USA and the sheath being Made in China. From my reading of the FTC's "Complying with the Made In the USA Standard," http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/buspubs/madeusa.htm only if the knife and the sheath cost close to the same amount to produce would Buck Knives be required to state, on it's box, that it wasn't Made in USA..... in my non-lawyerly opinion. In other words, Buck Knives can state "Made in USA" on a 110 Folding Hunter's box because producing the knife costs Buck a theoretical 90% more than producing the sheath, 'Made in China.'

Good trolling job, but baseless, in my opinion.

GeoThorn
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:eek: NOW all rember this descusion is jest a discusion of difering opions based and started by a few ( like me suprised and disapointed in getting a knife with buck and twaion on the blade or china or mex on the sheath...)

i also shared Geo Thorn's opion tell i read the other link that he did not referance and it is the enforcement policy of the FTC not general guide lines. following are quotes from that link addressing the bold or underline of geo's ...

"The Commission's authority to regulate U.S. origin claims derives from Section 5 of the Federal Trade Commission Act ("FTC Act"), 15 U.S.C. § 45, which prohibits "unfair or deceptive acts or practices."
"A Made in USA claim can be express or implied."""a "Made in USA" claim, like any other objective advertising claim, must be truthful and substantiated."

"This requires an examination of both the representation and the overall context, including the juxtaposition of phrases and images, and the nature of the transaction. Depending on the context, U.S. symbols or geographic references, such as U.S. flags, outlines of U.S. maps, or references to U.S. locations of headquarters or factories, may, by themselves or in conjunction with other phrases or images, convey a claim of U.S. origin. "

"B. Proportion of U.S. Manufacturing Costs."
..."Nonetheless, there is not a fixed point for all products at which they suddenly become "all or virtually all" made in the United States. Rather, the Commission will conduct this inquiry on a case-by-case basis, balancing the proportion of U.S. manufacturing costs along with the other factors discussed herein, and taking into account the nature of the product and consumers' expectations in determining whether an enforcement action is warranted.

" U.S. origin claims and those for foreign origin marking, the analysis is slightly different for advertising and for labeling."...."
"Marketers are required to substantiate implied, as well express, material claims that consumers acting reasonably in the circumstances take from the representations. Therefore, the Commission encourages marketers, where a foreign-origin marking is required by Customs on the product itself, to include in any qualified or comparative U.S. origin claim a clear, conspicuous, and understandable disclosure of foreign manufacture."
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mann ... trolling is hard work :rolleyes: !!! comments still welcomed!
i again, like buck knives and i only wish they had started a sepret line like buck red or buck deer or buck rack, or buck and doe or better and more reasonable " 'buck int.' (international)" or even better "buck world" ;) for the non usa offerings!!! comments welcomed on that also!
yours most respectfully dave
 
I wonder if this thread would exist if the Buck knives made in China and Taiwan were made in Germany and Sweden?
 
No, it wouldn't. The primary reason, the very poor reputation of Chinese knives. The American cutlery market has not been flooded with millions of junk knives from Germany and Sweden.

And I suspect if Buck were importing knives from German or Swedish factories, that fact would be proudly advertised on the Buck website and product packaging.

-Bob
 
Warhawk said:
I wonder if this thread would exist if the Buck knives made in China and Taiwan were made in Germany and Sweden?
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Shure it would, it wouldn't be as animated but it would. Buck MADE IN THE USA is important to people. I know it is to me. JMO
Steven
 
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