Bucks of China

[Teague]

Thanks BC. But, I sent them an email anyway.

 

[rebeltf]

I had a Buck Mayo Cutback , at first I hated it , the blade was too thick , once I modded it though I found myself carrying it more and then I lost it... heheh.

A good knife if you can score one for around 20$.

 

[RedRockNv]

DaveH. You are probably right it should have been in the Buck forum but I started it as a general rant about knives. I love my Buck knives. My daily carry folder I have every day is a Buck Alpha Hunter. I am just saying that somewhere it should have said "made in China" a tiny flag in the corner is no way to tell me where a knife is made. I have no problem with the fit or finish they are fine as far as function I will never know because it will just sit in the box it came in to remind me to pay attention and support the country that I live in. As far as price the MIC was only $27 which should have been my tip off something was wrong.

 

[coffeecup]

It has been explained repeatedly on this and many other knife forums, that Buck's website does label knives made in America with an American Flag.

How much more do you need?

Buck's website doesn't bother to provide this explanation (actually, maybe the new one does; I don't have the time to sit and wait for the current version to load). Without an explanation, how is someone supposed to know what the little flag means? Or are consumers supposed to somehow read the mind of whatever Buck employee designed the website?

There have been many threads documenting the quality of the Chinese Bucks. Every thread I have read has been extremely positive as far as fit & finish, design, and performance.

Knarfeng, I hope you're still reading this thread. Based on my limited sample (four knives, apparently made at different times, from different distributors), one in four was of acceptable quality in the areas of fit and finish. The others had issues ranging from chipped blades, to cracked scales, to missing shields.

I didn't set out to buy a "cheap Buck;" I made a 90 mile round trip to buy a BUCK. I could have bought a cheap junk-knife locally. When I found a model I liked--one I'd regretted not purchasing when a similar one was offered earlier--I bought it. Where it was manufactured wasn't an issue, because I didn't know enough to seek out the tiny "Made in China" label, or to look on the back of the blade where it is stamped "China."

The two I received as gifts weren't purchased because they were "cheap;" they were purchased because they were made by BUCK, and intended as gifts for a collector of Buck knives. The fourth was purchased as a replacement for one of the gifts because I got tired of waiting for Buck's warranty service to return the one I sent in.

As always, design is excellent. The knife I purchased was of a design I'd regretted not purchasing back when I was a kid, one I'd watched for for almost twenty years. It says a lot that the design of a utilitarian tool like a pocket knife was so excellent that I'd seek one for that long.

I can't address questions of performance; I was so disgusted with the quality issues I've never carried one.

I've no objection to knives made in other countries or even other planets. My objection is to companies seemingly trading on their reputation as makers of quality knives in order to sell knives not made to the standards that created that reputation. I like Boker's business model of having multiple lines of knives, and making it clear that the lines are made in different locations to different standards of fit and finish, with different steels, etc.

 

[JD Mandrell]

Buck's website doesn't bother to provide this explanation (actually, maybe the new one does; I don't have the time to sit and wait for the current version to load).

I haven't checked the new website, which is not finished BTW, but the old website absolutely did have an explanation of the flag marker on it.

 

[knarfeng]

Yes, coffeecup, I am still reading. I try to watch all threads I have posted in, although sometimes I miss one. (I consider posting and never coming back to the thread to be rude.)

Now I have read of a dissatisfied Chinese Buck owner. That does not change the fact that all the other posts I have read on the topic have been posted by satisfied owners of that product line. But in the future, I will be able to say, "All but one report that I have read about Chinese Buck quality have been positive." My own experience with a Chinese Buck has been positive. Fit and Finish were excellent, design (the reason I knowingly chose to buy a Chinese Buck) works really well for my need, and the performance is good.

I confess am a bit surprised that a self described "Buck Collector" is unfamiliar with the nuances of the website best able to provide information about the brand of knife he has chosen to collect and that prior to driving 90 miles he did not research the models in which he was interested. But such is life. The unexpected happens.

If you have not already done so, you might want to post your experiences with the Chinese Bucks on the Buck forum. Not only are there other collectors there who can help by sharing their experiences, but the Mods are Buck personnel who can and do often help if someone is having a warranty issue, as you apparently had.

 

[coffeecup]

I haven't checked the new website, which is not finished BTW, but the old website absolutely did have an explanation of the flag marker on it.

Where was the explanation given? Perhaps I should have written:

After someone explained the meaning of the flag icon on Buck's website, I was unable to find an explanation on the website manually. Using Google, and employing arcane search terms such as "flag" and "marker," I was unable to find an explanation.

As a customer, I see little difference between "no explanation" and "hidden explanation." (And no, I'm not suggesting the explanation was deliberately concealed, just that I did look and could not find it.)

I confess am a bit surprised that a self described "Buck Collector" is unfamiliar with the nuances of the website best able to provide information about the brand of knife he has chosen to collect and that prior to driving 90 miles he did not research the models in which he was interested. But such is life. The unexpected happens.

I never really considered myself a Buck "collector," and generally referred to it all as an "accumulation." Unfortunately, in the minds of most of the world, if you have more than two knives of the same pattern you are a "collector;" the two knives I was given were apparently purchased with that idea in mind. To me, "collection" is a more formal practice involving research and study; after around 30 years, I had a footlocker full of Bucks and but only limited Buck literature (mostly catalogs and dealer price lists from the '60s and '70s). In contrast, having recently decided to collect Ulster-marked knives, Barlows by various makers, and TL-29 pattern knives, I've only gathered a few knives but many books and several hundred pages of ephemera, user accounts, contract specs, photos, etc.

The nearest place with any kind of selection of Bucks is about 45 miles away from home. I took an afternoon off work and went shopping. "Researching models" would imply I had some plan beyond looking at knives and buying myself a new Buck knife--and I didn't.

If you have not already done so, you might want to post your experiences with the Chinese Bucks on the Buck forum. Not only are there other collectors there who can help by sharing their experiences, but the Mods are Buck personnel who can and do often help if someone is having a warranty issue, as you apparently had.

I have mentioned it a few times over at the Buck forum, but--like all collectors--Buck collectors tend to be Buck partisans (I was for a lot of years too). Buck collectors hang out there to talk about how great Bucks are and to show off their treasures, not to listen to what they might see as "badmouthing" of the products they collect. It's not worth fighting over.

At no time did anyone from Buck respond to what I'd posted, even in the thread I started to ask about the time needed for warranty work and asking if anyone from Buck was there. The knife I sent in was apparently not returned or was lost in shipping; I don't know as they didn't bother to respond to snail mail asking if it had been shipped. After 14 weeks with no response from Buck (and no knife), I contacted the guy in charge of their customer service to let him know he seemed to have a problem. He offered to look into it (and I do appreciate that), but at this point I really have no desire to have any more Buck knives.

 

[JD Mandrell]

As has been explained more times that I can recall at this point, Buck:

1. Labels domestic products with an American Flag on their website.
2. Labels ALL product packaging with clearly printed English print with the country of origin.
3. Stamps ALL products with the country of origin, in the same size lettering used for both import and domestic markings.
4. Maintains a very dedicated online presence here to provide information about their products.

Beyond all this, there is not much more they can do, short of assigning a personal Buck employee to go to the store with each customer to help them pick out a knife.

 

[mp510]

Buck's website doesn't bother to provide this explanation (actually, maybe the new one does; I don't have the time to sit and wait for the current version to load). Without an explanation, how is someone supposed to know what the little flag means? Or are consumers supposed to somehow read the mind of whatever Buck employee designed the website?

I will agree that in the beginning there was some vaguity about place of manufacture on the packageing. When I bought my 373 (which was one of the earliest ones) I did not realize it was Chinese production until I used the sheepsfoot blade. However, that problem has definetely been rectified with both clamshell and yellow box import models.

They also use the special symbol on sourced knives' tang stamps, which is indicated on the website as being the sign for overseas manufacture.

 

[knarfeng]

Went back and read your posts in the Buck Forum.

Now I have read of a dissatisfied Buck owner.

 

[coffeecup]

As has been explained more times that I can recall at this point, Buck:

1. Labels domestic products with an American Flag on their website.

Without an easily-accessible explanation of why the little flag is there, in that context it is a meaningless symbol. It also does nothing for the sizable number of people who buy Buck knives without reference to the website or catalogs, solely because they want to buy a Buck. Perhaps they could label the counter mattes?

And where on the old website was that explanation of what the little flags mean?

2. Labels ALL product packaging with clearly printed English print with the country of origin.

On the boxes I've examined (I've only looked at folders and don't know how fixed-blade knives are marked) country of origin is printed on a sticker, on the bottom of the box, in the smallest font on the box. If you don't know to look for it, you won't see it. It would be nice if the boxes were permanently marked, where it would be seen without a search.

3. Stamps ALL products with the country of origin, in the same size lettering used for both import and domestic markings.

They do stamp all products (at least the ones I've seen) with country of origin.

Font sizes seem to differ, as can be clearly seen in the photos you posted in the thread Buck Stockmen Compared 301/371. The amount of difference is consistent with what I found when I geeked out and used the reticule on a stereo microscope to measure the height of the characters on a 301 and 382; my 382 had smaller letters than the 301. (I don't know the vintage of the 301 I looked at, and still wonder if this was a factor. I've not examined enough of each, of the same vintage, to be able to say the size difference is consistent, or if the difference is consistent.)

Further (as is again shown by your photos) the imports are marked differently. USA Bucks are marked (BUCK, model number, USA) on the main blade, while the imports are marked (BUCK, model number) on the main blade, with "CHINA" on the back of another blade. If Buck was using the same size font, there should be room to mark them the same way (unless there is some other reason to mark them this way?).

4. Maintains a very dedicated online presence here to provide information about their products. QUOTE]
I've noticed that; it's why I was so disappointed at the lack of response in forums and in the US Mail from anyone connected with Buck. Maybe I could have gotten a response if I were a member of the BCCI?

Beyond all this, there is not much more they can do, short of assigning a personal Buck employee to go to the store with each customer to help them pick out a knife.

I can't speak for anyone else, but in the case of the one I purchased in January of this year I had almost exactly the knife I wanted: one as close as I could get to the 311 I couldn't get back in the '80s. Of the knives I was given over the next few days, both were the same model with one being a commemorative version with jigged bone. None of us cared about where it was made, after all, we were each buying a BUCK: we knew they were the best knives made.

Every one was defective.

So when you say "there is not much more they can do," I would respectfully suggest they could employ consistent practices in marking import and US-produced knives, packaging, etc so customers won't feel deceived.

Or they could fix their quality problems, and after a while no one would care about country of origin.

 

[Manife]

Hey do you guys care where your razors are made? what about your box cutters? Or your electric face shavers, or carpet knifes with the big hook on the end? No I don't think you do. Nobody freaks because they are made over seas.

Those are the real tools. They work good. They get the job done. They cost a fraction of what a Buck USA or Buck China knife does. If you are really buying a knife to cut something other than meat you shouldn't use your $100-$200 Buck to do it, you should use your 5 cent razor because you don't care about it.

If you are really planning on using your knife buy a cheap one. They can be sharpened 50+ times they can be used and abused every day. I guarantee that your disappointing and cheap Chinese crap in the trunk of your car will get used more than your "good" knife.

 

[enderwiggin]

Hey do you guys care where your razors are made? what about your box cutters? Or your electric face shavers, or carpet knifes with the big hook on the end? No I don't think you do. Nobody freaks because they are made over seas.

Those are the real tools. They work good. They get the job done. They cost a fraction of what a Buck USA or Buck China knife does. If you are really buying a knife to cut something other than meat you shouldn't use your $100-$200 Buck to do it, you should use your 5 cent razor because you don't care about it.

If you are really planning on using your knife buy a cheap one. They can be sharpened 50+ times they can be used and abused every day. I guarantee that your disappointing and cheap Chinese crap in the trunk of your car will get used more than your "good" knife.

Hmm. First post, on a knife forum, telling knife to buy cheap knives because they're better than expensive knives. On a knife forum.

Hmm...

 

[JD Mandrell]

And where on the old website was that explanation of what the little flags mean?

http://web.archive.org/web/20070818182123/www.buckknives.com/manufacturing.php

"All knives are manufactured to Buck's exacting specifications. As we have expanded our domestic manufacturing capabilities, we have also sought foreign manufacturing assistance with some product models. This enables us to maintain a high level of production, cost efficiencies, broad product selection and pricing, and steady delivery with our active product line and also devote appropriate resources to new product development. Each knife model has an individual page on our web site, where you can see an image of the knife and read about its features. An American flag signifies that the knife is manufactured domestically."

On the boxes I've examined (I've only looked at folders and don't know how fixed-blade knives are marked) country of origin is printed on a sticker, on the bottom of the box, in the smallest font on the box. If you don't know to look for it, you won't see it. It would be nice if the boxes were permanently marked, where it would be seen without a search.

It's printed right on all packaging, clear as day. "If" this is such an important issue to you, why would you not look for it? The price point alone should indicate to any intelligent person, that it's an import.

Font sizes seem to differ, as can be clearly seen in the photos you posted in the thread Buck Stockmen Compared 301/371. The amount of difference is consistent with what I found when I geeked out and used the reticule on a stereo microscope to measure the height of the characters on a 301 and 382; my 382 had smaller letters than the 301.

OK, that's interesting, because I am actually holding the two knives I used for the photos in that thread right here and now, and you are wrong.

1. "BucK" is the same size on both knives.
2. The model number is LARGER on the Import.
3. "China" on the import is in a LARGER font than the "U.S.A." on the domestic knife. (Wow, they suck at hiding that "China" don't they.

Further (as is again shown by your photos) the imports are marked differently. USA Bucks are marked (BUCK, model number, USA) on the main blade, while the imports are marked (BUCK, model number) on the main blade, with "CHINA" on the back of another blade. If Buck was using the same size font, there should be room to mark them the same way (unless there is some other reason to mark them this way?).

Since the fonts on the imports are larger, there might be your answer?

4. Maintains a very dedicated online presence here to provide information about their products. QUOTE]
I've noticed that; it's why I was so disappointed at the lack of response in forums and in the US Mail from anyone connected with Buck.

Did you ever establish that the knife you sent in, and repeatedly attempted to hijack other peoples threads about ever made it to Buck? Things do get lost in the mail, last time you mentioned it in the Buck forum, you said you had checked the tracking numbers, what are they?

Maybe I could have gotten a response if I were a member of the BCCI?

Plenty of people get above and beyond from Bucks customer service all the time, whether they are BCCI or not. I just joined last month, so I guess when I sent in a 301 for warranty work in 2005 and got prompt quality service, I knew the secret handshake?

I can't speak for anyone else, but in the case of the one I purchased in January of this year.....Every one was defective.

That's all any of us can do, is speak to our own direct experience. Yours is virtually 100% the opposite of myself and most others who have talked about them here. I've owned and handled literally over 100 models from the import line, and seen maybe 4 or 5 that were bad. For 1 person to have several that were "all" defective, seems statistically unlikely.

So when you say "there is not much more they can do," I would respectfully suggest they could employ consistent practices in marking import and US-produced knives, packaging, etc so customers won't feel deceived.

I guess this is the crux of these type threads that I find so humorous.

Grown adults that purchase a product that in todays market, the price alone should have told any thinking person, that it's an import, or handle it in a store and never bother to look at the packaging to learn something that they claim has great importance to them, and was clearly printed right on it, then proceed to go on a rampage screaming, the manufacturer/retail store/online dealer/boogeyman "deceived" me!!!!!!!

If the issue of where a knife is made is that important to you, then take the time and small amount of effort to find it out before you purchase it. Access to this forum alone was all you needed.

 

[Seals]

I've taken apart and rehandled many of the Buck imports and found them to be very strong knives with stout thick liners and backsprings that take rough treatment.Actually more forgiving than a couple of big U.S. names.Some of the China knives are junk,but my experience has been good with Buck,Boker Magnum,and Rough Rider.All political and moral issues aside,they are good knives and very cheap for what you get.

 

[allenC]

Buck's website doesn't bother to provide this explanation (actually, maybe the new one does; I don't have the time to sit and wait for the current version to load). Without an explanation, how is someone supposed to know what the little flag means?

I think that the average adult can figure out that the US flag indicates "made in the USA"....it's not that difficult.

But just to help you out, since you're a gold member, you can do a "search" on the Buck forum....some time ago I did the research and listed all the Buck knives that are made in the USA (at least all the ones I could find).
There are probably some missing but it's still a good list that you might find useful.

Perhaps you or some other gold member could put a link here for everyone's use?


Good luck,
Allen.

 

[allenC]

Hey do you guys care where your razors are made? what about your box cutters? Or your electric face shavers, or carpet knifes with the big hook on the end? No I don't think you do. Nobody freaks because they are made over seas.

Those are the real tools. They work good. They get the job done. They cost a fraction of what a Buck USA or Buck China knife does. If you are really buying a knife to cut something other than meat you shouldn't use your $100-$200 Buck to do it, you should use your 5 cent razor because you don't care about it.

If you are really planning on using your knife buy a cheap one. They can be sharpened 50+ times they can be used and abused every day. I guarantee that your disappointing and cheap Chinese crap in the trunk of your car will get used more than your "good" knife.

I see what you're saying and I both agree and disagree....

I agree that the average person doesn't care where his razors or box-cutters are made.
Why?
Because they are disposable.
The user never expects to keep it, or pass it down to his children, and to their children, and so on....

However, THE KNIFE that one carries everyday for many many years....
THE KNIFE that one has come to trust and rely upon time and time again....
THE KNIFE that has seen the user through the best of times and the worse of times....
That is not just any common tool.
That's something very special indeed.

 

[shecky]

I agree that the average person doesn't care where his razors or box-cutters are made.
Why?
Because they are disposable.
The user never expects to keep it, or pass it down to his children, and to their children, and so on....

However, THE KNIFE that one carries everyday for many many years....
THE KNIFE that one has come to trust and rely upon time and time again....
THE KNIFE that has seen the user through the best of times and the worse of times....
That is not just any common tool.
That's something very special indeed.

I think this kind of highlights the special weirdness knife nuts tend to have, developing a relationship with their cutlery. Knife nuts don't cherish the notion of passing down the family pipe wrench to their children, the PIPE WRENCH that one carries everyday for many many years....
PIPE WRENCH that one has come to trust and rely upon time and time again....
PIPE WRENCH that has seen the user through the best of times and the worse of times....

Personally, I find myself better off treating tools for what they are. So despite being a fan of sharp, pointy things, I find myself agreeing with Manife.

I think that the average adult can figure out that the US flag indicates "made in the USA"....it's not that difficult.

I'll cut coffeecup some slack here. A US flag alone doesn't necessarily mean anything, as the flag gets exploited for all kinds of marketing reasons in all industries. My guess is that when Buck revamped their site a couple months back, they forgot to put an explanation of what that flag meant, as the old site did.

 

[DaveH]

I think the real problem was Buck had a Made in the USA heritage. Buck had to make a tough choice to move some production over seas. The problem was they did not clearly address the heritage issue. So many people who like buck didn't know, and they get a little pissed when they find out the knife they bought was made in china.

 

[the possum]

I have an imported Buck fixed blade; it was a Christmas gift. Don't know the model, and don't remember specifically if it was Chinese or made in Taiwan. (?)

Anyway, the fit and finish ain't just too bad. I don't care for the handle design though. It's got squared edges, thick guard, and ill fitting to the proportions of my hand. Just used it a little bit around the kitchen, and got chips halfway up the edge bevel. Gave it a sharpening and got more chips. Don't really care enough about it either way, but just thought I'd chime in as another owner who hasn't had a great experience with one.