Building a vibratory tumbler... (nope, probably buying one instead)

PT Doc said:
Here is another option. USA made

http://www.kalamazooind.com/products/vibratory-finishers/kvf3-vibratory-finisher/
Click to expand...

Thanks Doc! I didn't realize Kalamazoo made a model, that's a good option!

I was able to get a factory refurbished Mr Deburr unit for $1600, about half price, so I'm happy with what I got in terms of value and quality. However the units you're posting are potentially great options for others looking at making the same decision, so please keep posting them when you find them!

Bill Burke said:
Aaron, I wasn't going to say anything But I tried this a few years ago on a couple of kitchen knives and both the chefs who bought them sent them back for a refinish. this was on my 52100 gyoto's. they both said that the satin finish worked better for the reasons stated above. they could clean with a scrubby and it didn't perceptibly change the look of the finish. while on the tumbled finish it did. when I got the knives back they were both nearly satin finished from cleaning.

Just passing along my experience.
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Thanks Bill!
I will admit I'm surprised that a scrubbie was able to change the finish that much! The one I have at home couldn't sand the dust off a butterfly's wings, but I bet the ones in commercial kitchens are a bit different!

I will heed your experience and not get my hopes up too much. It's still something I'd like to try, but I won't expect too much of it. I'll also likely stick with the larger tumbler rather than changing my order for the smaller one as I'm sure it will give me more options in the future on other projects. The bigger one and the smaller one take up nearly the same floorspace anyway!

There's also the possibility that a different media will yield a different result, but as I said I won't get my hopes up too much!

-A
 
sure Aaron it was something I tried when it was starting to used more with tactical pieces. Seemed like a good Idea to me. now that the stone washed finish is very popular in the tactical market it may be more popular on kitchen knives.
 
aarongough said:
Thanks Doc! I didn't realize Kalamazoo made a model, that's a good option!

I was able to get a factory refurbished Mr Deburr unit for $1600, about half price, so I'm happy with what I got in terms of value and quality. However the units you're posting are potentially great options for others looking at making the same decision, so please keep posting them when you find them!



Thanks Bill!
I will admit I'm surprised that a scrubbie was able to change the finish that much! The one I have at home couldn't sand the dust off a butterfly's wings, but I bet the ones in commercial kitchens are a bit different!

I will heed your experience and not get my hopes up too much. It's still something I'd like to try, but I won't expect too much of it. I'll also likely stick with the larger tumbler rather than changing my order for the smaller one as I'm sure it will give me more options in the future on other projects. The bigger one and the smaller one take up nearly the same floorspace anyway!

There's also the possibility that a different media will yield a different result, but as I said I won't get my hopes up too much!

-A
Click to expand...

Is the tumbling creating a hardened finish? If yes, then Scotchbrite might not be its nemesis. If not, then I would assume it would get scratches from Scotchbrite. After all, scotch brite or non woven abrasive pads are used in metal fishing/surface conditioning all day long. I have used it to strip paint of a grinder shield.

Will you tumble the ht or ht then tumble? That would likely make a difference. I'm eager to see how this turns out.
 
PT Doc said:
Is the tumbling creating a hardened finish? If yes, then Scotchbrite might not be its nemesis. If not, then I would assume it would get scratches from Scotchbrite. After all, scotch brite or non woven abrasive pads are used in metal fishing/surface conditioning all day long. I have used it to strip paint of a grinder shield.

Will you tumble the ht or ht then tumble? That would likely make a difference. I'm eager to see how this turns out.
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As I understand it, in order to work harden a surface you'd have to plastically deform it. A media with an abrasive likely won't do it because it would be cutting away any layer that it would be hardening. Non-abrasive media will deform the surface slightly, but that process requires more and more energy as the hardness of the steel goes up...

In industry they accomplish surface hardening via processes like shot peening, and I bet some of the centrifugal finishers could also inject enough energy into the surface to accomplish the hardening. But I don't think a regular vibratory tumbler would do it, at least not for hardened steel. It might be a different matter for some of the softer work hardenable steels like 300 series stainless.

Any surface hardening accomplished by this sort of mechanism done before heat-treat would be undone by the heat-treat process. Anything done after heat-treat would require much higher energy input levels in terms of the peening media hitting the part. Not sure that a vibratory tub would have have enough force involved.

I'd love to hear from others on the subject though, most of the above is patched together from different things I've read about those process as well as my understanding of metallurgy (such as it is) so I may be way off base.
 
Now you guys have me thinking . . . how does the Mr. Deburr work? I realize it has a "U" shaped tank, but what direction is the movement?

Does it move in an off center vertical circle with a large cam lobe?
Or . . . .
Does it move in an off center horizontal circle with a large cam lobe?

Have an application for one, but not enough to buy a $3,000.00 machine.

Steve
 
sdemars said:
Now you guys have me thinking . . . how does the Mr. Deburr work? I realize it has a "U" shaped tank, but what direction is the movement?

Does it move in an off center vertical circle with a large cam lobe?
Or . . . .
Does it move in an off center horizontal circle with a large cam lobe?

Have an application for one, but not enough to buy a $3,000.00 machine.

Steve
Click to expand...

There is a horizontal jack shaft mounted to the bottom of the tub, with an offset weight that moves the tub in a circular motion. There are a couple of videos on their site that show the machine parts in more detail:

[video=youtube;BJzHD73st2E]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJzHD73st2E[/video]

[video=youtube;kNotvJwoKwY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNotvJwoKwY[/video]

Hope that's helpful!
 
So they basically suspend/attach the motor & the jack shaft with offset lobe to the bottom of the steel tub and support the tub assembly with (4) heavy duty springs.

Is my statement fairly correct . . . To simple to accurate . . . .lol lol lol

Steve
 
I guess the motor, jackshaft with lobe are ALL suspended. I can not see how the motor could be stationary.

Steve
 
Aaron, would it be rude of me to ask if you could take a few pictures and share with me.(here or e-mail)
I have a 4X4 CNC plasma table and will be making some small parts and would love to have a vibratory tumbler.
I could cut all the parts, brackets, etc. on my table and weld it up.
I have built some commercial peanut roasters in the years past, so I think this would be a really cool project.

Steve
 
I'm sure that would be fine. If someone is able to design a working 1 cubic foot unit then that would be great for knifemakers who don't want the much larger unit from C&M topline.
 
aarongough said:
I'm sure that would be fine. If someone is able to design a working 1 cubic foot unit then that would be great for knifemakers who don't want the much larger unit from C&M topline.
Click to expand...

I really don't see why parts could not be designed and cut. Other parts could be sourced and a list built. Then maybe a "NO-WELD vibratory unit could be built.

I'm going to try to get a look at a Mr. Deburr somewhere. If you do have some pics to share it would help.

Thanks,
Steve
 
12345678910 said:
You can make a sprocket of any size you wish.

Start with a plate and drill some holes in a circle with hole spacing matched to chain spacing.
Click to expand...

True, with a slight terminology correction -- the holes are drilled in a spacing which matches the chain pitch.

Here's a great reference for cutting your own sprockets. Its' actually significantly easy if you have a "bolt hole circle" program on a DRO on a mill. But you do have to do either the math to determine the "pitch circle diameter" or do a traditional pen & paper layout first.

http://www.gizmology.net/sprockets.htm

Here is a calculator for common motorcycle sizes:

https://www.rbracing-rsr.com/calcsprocketdiam.html

a
 
Yeah that's not good. Breaking only 6 months in... I've seen people complaining about that same fault with the machine both on the review section of their site, and also on a forum somewhere in the course of researching the Northern Tool tumbler...
 
So here's a quick cost comparison between some of the different options (these are all delivered to Canada)

Northern Tool - 1.25 Cu ft model: $800 for the machine, $200 for shipping, $100 for brokerage & tax. Total: $1,100
Northern Tool - 2.50 cu ft model: $1550 for the machine, $250 for shipping, $140 for brokerage & tax. Total: $1,940

Plus you'd need media for either machine, figure about $1.25/lb for decent media, plus shipping and tax:
1.25 cu ft of media - ~70lb (ceramic) $87 + ~$50 for shipping, $12 in tax = $104
2.50 cu ft of media - ~140lb (ceramic) $174 + ~$80 for shipping, $24 in tax = $278

(Note that the media shipping costs are estimated)

I ordered 3 different types of media for my machine, so the equivalent prices for a full kit with the Northern Tool machines:
1.25 cu ft machine, full kit - $1,100 for machine, plus 3x $104 for media: $1,412
2.5 cu ft machine, full kit - $1,940 for machine, plus 3x $278 for media: $2,774

For comparison the 0.75 cu ft bowl model from C&M Topline, with 3 full loads of different ceramic media would have been around:
$1683 for the machine & media, $325 for shipping, $150 for brokerage & tax. Total: $2,158

The 3 cu ft 'Mr Deburr' unit ends up costing quite a bit more. To buy a new one would be around:
$3000 for the machine, $593 for 3 types of media, $495 for shipping, $238 for brokerage & tax. Total: $4326

I got a factory refurbished 'Mr Deburr' unit, for about half price, so the final price was less:
$1595 for the machine, $593 for 3 types of media, $495 for shipping, $175 for brokerage & tax. Total: $2858

All the prices above are in USD. Shipping and brokerage are calculated for delivery to Ontario, Canada.

I think overall the refurbished machines from C&M topline seem like very good value if you can get one. I think I'd be hard pressed to justify the cost of a new Mr Deburr unit personally, but the refurbished ones seem like a good deal, especially when compared to the Northern Tool model of similar size.

Bear in mind that the Northern Tool units don't come with a fluid system which would be another added cost. The pricing I showed above for the C&M Topline units does include fluid systems... I'm sure the pricing of all the above will change over time, but hopefully the above is helpful for someone else looking to make the same decisions that I just worked through!

The Kalamazoo machine might also be a good option for those looking for a 'Made in USA' machine.

It might be worth keeping an eye on the specials page on the C&M site: http://www.candmtopline.com/special_offers.html
 
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