Building Walls

M

munk

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Mar 22, 2002
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For some reason, I get emails from the Washington Post. They even seem to remember who I am when I read the links, as I'm not asked to sign in, and this despite erasing all my cookies from the machine routinely.
Hardly a conservative paper, but interesting at times, and every so often, even with enough guts to go against the NY Times.

So there's a list of recent articles. In one, I learn this is the dirtiest political year yet, and the Republicans are the most at fault, because they are desperate. I'm not happy with elected officials who predate on young teens, but note there have been Democrats who had sex with pages and there were no consequences. And I'm not even thinking of Clinton. So, it's a big ole unfair world, and my conservative libertarian views are going to get short shift from the 'mainstream media'. Ohhhh.

Next article; Bush signs bill authorizing border fence at 'odds with his stated purpose of reformed immigration policy." Paraphrased, quotes mine. I don't think he was hot for the fence, but no where in the article is it mentioned that the majority of Americans want the fence. That's an uncomfortable fact, and better left out.

Next article- how historically, fences fail. The way fences fail in the 'history' viewed by the author is interesting. Everything fails. Why build an M1 Tank knowing it will just become obsolete? So with fences. The German's reinforced coast is one of examples of proof about failed fences. I guess failed is the real judgement call; we lost an awful lot of lives on D day. The 'fence' worked, because it required a real cost to beat it, one that took the Allies a long time to get around to doing.
When we lock our bikes, we don't do so knowing it will stop every thief; we just want it to deter most.

OK. So what about this Mexican American fence? I dunno. On one hand I just want to laugh. I mean, come on. How about a moat too? And those Florida Alligators that are too big and numerous now? Yep- let them swim there. But one point raised in the article showing how fences fail mentioned when San Diego County build its 60ish mile fence, 'all it did was redirect traffic to the remote and dangerous AZ desert." Paraphrased, quotes mine.

Sounds like a working fence to me.
A fence is not a replacement for an answer to this illegal immigrant limbo we're in. I hope to God it is not our only response.
Naturally, former Mexican President Fox is against the fence, yet Mexico is far far harsher with the illegal Guatemalans on its southern border.

Bush wants the illegals here grandfathered in; just like last time this hit public awareness. Is that the answer?

I do think there needs to be an aparatus whereby Mexican nationals can work here and leave.
And I know, this sounds really wierd, but it would please my anarchist butt if we hired illegals to build the fence....

I'd be willing to grandfather some of those illegals in...

Life is very strange. Does anyone doubt for a moment there would not be illegals in the workforce building our fence? Now, about those alligators....


munk
 
I dunno (once again). I remember I wrote a paper about the border situation back in college. Dont remember everything, but the point for me was (and still is) that I perfectly understand why they want to be in the states. I have been to both sides of the border. A very drastic and sudden change occurs once you pass it. Frightening.

I'm not the one to judge their behavior, nor am I the one to tell the USA how to handle the situation. All I am saying is that I understand their dream.
It is my dream as well, although for different reasons (I'm not dreaming of getting rich; I am currently living in a socially and economically secure enviroment).

Tell me, what brought people from every country in the world to America in the first place?

Blessings,

Keno
 
The vast majority came here legally.

Neither Britain, nor Germany, nor France allow the kind of mass illegal immigration influx we have here, in their nations. Holland is no longer very keen to offer asylum, either. France did allow a mass legal immigration of moslems hoping they'd take the menial jobs. Now they riot.

But it's inevitable.
We'd better think of something. There are people all over the globe who play by the rules and must wait to get to America.

But you know we're all going to end up pretty much the same in the long run. Esperanza.
munk
 
munk said:
Sounds like a working fence to me.
A fence is not a replacement for an answer to this illegal immigrant limbo we're in. I hope to God it is not our only response.
Naturally, former Mexican President Fox is against the fence, yet Mexico is far far harsher with the illegal Guatemalans on its southern border.

munk
Click to expand...

Mexico is our enemy. And a big fat hypocrite.

They are opposed to the US making illegal immigration a felony, yet it is a felony in Mexico.

They are opposed to us putting a fence on our southern border, yet they have fenced their southern border.

I am pro fence. If for no other reason than that it irritates the mexicans. Hell, I'm pro infusing the border area with itching powder, fleas, rats, and moesquitoes for that same reason. Do they make those stickey rat traps long and wide enough to stop illegal immigration??? I'd be pro that. I think watching illegals stuck in the jelly ooze would be good tv.

I'm pro militarizing that border. Mexico is an enemy, lets stop pretending our enemies are our friends.;)
 
munk said:
The vast majority came here legally.
Click to expand...

They came there because they had a dream. And legally at that point meant killing those who lived there ;)

I am not trying to cause an argument, I was trying to focus on the dream part. But since you said 'legally'. They came, because they hoped to find a better home, a better place to live. Same story now, at least for some. And then there are those who are just trying to exploit the system. The latter ones need to be taken care of, but the others? It's pretty hard to get a green card these days I think...

----------------------------------

aproy1101 said:
I think watching illegals stuck in the jelly ooze would be good tv.
Click to expand...

I seriously hope you dont mean that... :(
aproy1101 said:
I'm pro militarizing that border. Mexico is an enemy, lets stop pretending our enemies are our friends.
Click to expand...

...and I think you are confusing people and politics. Yeah, shooting at them sure would be 'fun'.

Keno
 
Maybe a wiser choice than Iraq would have been to invade Mexico and make them part of the US. Then the workers would be subject to the min wage and would not be unfairly competing. People could retire there cause the cost of living would be somewhat lower than the Northern US, and while our gov't is corrupt, it's nowhere near as corrupt as the Mexican one so maybe it might help the average mexican more. Plus they have OIL!
 
I don't want them. I know this is news to liberals, but we are not an empire.
 
Keno, I don't think we'd have to shoot at anyone. Once the border was militarized we wouldn't have people trying to cross it.
 
Do you have native-american ancestors? Just curious :)

Your 'liberal' shoe doesn't fit me, so I am not even going to respond to that one.

Edit: Ah, now I am confused. I thought your answer was directed at me, but maybe it was directed at hollowdweller? Not sure...


Keno, I don't think we'd have to shoot at anyone. Once the border was militarized we wouldn't have people trying to cross it.
Click to expand...

We will have to agree to disagree on that one. People everywhere (as in: Not only the USA have immigration problems, duh!) are desperate enough to risk death to find a better place to live. A militarized border will not stop them in my eyes.

Blessings,

Keno
 
I surely don't want Mexico.

I have no problems with anyone from any culture that wants to come to the States, live the dream, and become an American, with all that entails.

For those who want to come to the US, exploit our system, and try to turn the US into the crappy country they just left, I say, stay the hell home.

The vast majority of Americans did not come at a time that "at that point meant killing those who lived there". That is an absolutely incorrect statement, off by anywhere from 50-150 years or more. The "Trail of Tears" happened in the 1830s, but the largest drops in the Native American population had probably already happened due to disease.

Whereas, there was very heavy immigration into the US in the late 19th Century...

While it is certainly true that some people are willing to risk death for a better life, there are quite a few Mexicans who are caught crossing early in the morning, and who are trying to cross again that night. Most of them are not risking death.

(edit)And you know what, Keno, I just have a quick question: why is it you always seem to want to argue about US internal issues? I'm curious, really, because it seems to happen a lot.

John
 
richardallen said:
Do you have native-american ancestors? Just curious :)

Your 'liberal' shoe doesn't fit me, so I am not even going to respond to that one.

Edit: Ah, now I am confused. I thought your answer was directed at me, but maybe it was directed at hollowdweller? Not sure...




We will have to agree to disagree on that one. People everywhere (as in: Not only the USA have immigration problems, duh!) are desperate enough to risk death to find a better place to live. A militarized border will not stop them in my eyes.

Blessings,

Keno
Click to expand...

I don't think there are a lot of border crossings between N and S Korea.

I do have Native American ancestery. So what? Its hard to talk situational politics if you're going to apply our entire history, rather than our current situation, to current situations.

Yea, the liberal jab was for HD. ;) HD, you know I love you.:D
 
Keno- when you attribute quotes, please give a name with them.

>>>>>>>>>>>

People are pretty much the same. If the Sioux had the M1 Garand rifle in 1880, there would not be another tribe west of the Miss. River. People displace people.


It really is a mess. Worker program, good idea.
I do think English should be our language, not because it's 'better' or racist, but because people need to have things in common in order to survive with one another. Texas has an enormous Mexican population.., Tex- Mex, I guess- the majority. Guess what? They do not favor illegal immigration either- they see themselves as Americans. I do too.

I am intrigued by the idea of annexing Mexico. Maybe that will make sense some day. But right now; "I don't want it" either.

munk
 
munk said:
I am intrigued by the idea of annexing Mexico. Maybe that will make sense some day. But right now; "I don't want it" either.

munk
Click to expand...

Oil? Weed? Tequila? Spicy Food? I think the country holds vital strategic interest to us, plus we can fight Venezuela over there and mess up Mexico instead of fighting them here!;)
 
I'm all for immigration...legally. Personally, i get so tired of the "Well where did YOUR family come from?" argument. My family? Well they all seemed to have come over legally and got their paper's to get into this country. My Great-Grandfather came over here with my Great-Great-Grandfather pre-WWI from Germany. My Great Gradfather worked his ass off in a glass factory. At some point, there was an explosion and he lost his eye. He raised a family, but was so poor that he used skids and pallets from the glass plant to build his house...which was actually a chicken coop because the building permit for a house was too expensive. He also had to drag these board home on his bicycle...never owned a car. Where would he park it living in a longhouse made from boards and skids and tarps?
During the first war, he was very helpful and very pro-US. This was his home now, not Germany. Still, the anti-Germanic bigotry caused him a lot of issues as he was watched closely by the governement as well as his neighbors (Ironic as probably 80% or better of Southern Indiana is very, very Germanic). For all his hardships, he could not imagine being in a better place. He worked hard and did not have much, but what he had was his. He earned it....the right way.

Personally, I do not feel that I have earned the right to be a chest-beating, flag waving patriot. I have not experienced enough to feel comfortable telling people to get the hell off my lawn. However, I was FURIOUS when I saw Mexican nationals walking in US streets and waving MEXICAN flags because they were not getting "what they deserved". What they deserved?? Tell that to my Great Grandfather who lived in a chicken coop, to my starving family that stepped off the boat from Ireland only to be pelted at the docks for being a less than human Mick. Tell it to my grandmother who came back over from England with my grandfather after WWII to earn her citzenship and raise a brood of 6 kids. Tell that to the rest of my family that was displaced and scattered by the white man. To my nearly full blooded Cherokee great grandmother. Tell them about what you are owed because you walked through a desert and climbed some barb wire.

America is a melting pot for everyone, but at some time the pot is gonna bubble over. How are we the evil ones just because we are the generation whose hand has been forced to put on the lid? All races, colors, and creeds are welcome in the great country. However, if some is REALLY passionate about living here, then they need to first respect our laws (don't shimmie under the fence) and remember to check their old nationality at the door. Be proud that you are German, English, Itallian, Irish, Spanish, or Mexican...be more proud that you are an American.

Jake
 
Walls don't work.

Cultures that build one never seem to make it.

Berlin wall? Hadrians's wall? Great wall of China?

None worked. Barbarians got through :D so did capitalism.

munk, I think you meant "Esperanto" - the universal language - up there in #3. "Esperanza" means "hope" in Spanish. Ironically enough.


Mike
 
ah damn. I'm bummed now. I thought Munk was talking about really strong coffee:(;)

Jake
 
Esperanza is also a woman's name... as in

"Esperanza ordered espresso in Esperanto."

Oooookkkay, I've had enough coffee myself.


Mike :foot:
 
Munk, sorry, will do. I edited it.


aproy1101 said:
I don't think there are a lot of border crossings between N and S Korea.
Click to expand...

Probably not. Spain is having a lot of trouble w/ people from Marocco. GB w/ people from everywhere. Germany as well, France too. Just *some* examples...

Oh well, since I always seem to argue about US internal affairs, I'll just leave this thread now.

Blessings,

Keno
 
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