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Building Walls
- Thread starter munk
- Start date
The US does have some interesting immigration problems, what scares me is the level of anti immigrant sentiment that seems to rise from it. I am a little surprised at what comes pretty close to hate that I have been reading here. Frankly this talk of mexico being "the enemy" scares the hell out of me I hope none of you take that kind of hatefull rhetoric seriously.
As to Andys "No immigration problem on the N/S Korea Border" that is becuase if you try and cross it you will die, by bullet or by land mine (hopefully no one is in favor of mining the US mexican border). There is a huge problem with immigration from N Korea into China.
There seems to be a fear that mexican imigrants will dillute american culture (especialy if you read Samuel Taylor Huntington who specializes in forseeing grave threats to protestant white american values). But "The language issue is largely a red herring: most newly arrived Hispanic families have become fluent in English by the second generation, just as previous waves of immigrants did before them. But the argumentthat illegal immigrants take jobs away from many equally unskilled native-born Americans, and drive wages down for the rest, has never been convincingly refuted, even though it remains politically incorrect." Dyer.
Contrary to popular belief only 1 in 8 people in the US are first generation immigrants. Comperable to europe and much less than canadas 1 in 5. Furthermore illeagle immigrants assimilate withing a generation or two, just as quickly as any other wave of immigrants (per capita Irish imigration in during the potatoe famine was greater than Mexican imigration now).
The reason the US government cannot seem to formulate a coheratn policy on imigration is that there exists a powerful economic lobby "that actively wants a large, steady flow of unskilled immigrants, preferably illegal ones."
Just my opinion.
Love thy neighbor as thyself
Grob
As to Andys "No immigration problem on the N/S Korea Border" that is becuase if you try and cross it you will die, by bullet or by land mine (hopefully no one is in favor of mining the US mexican border). There is a huge problem with immigration from N Korea into China.
There seems to be a fear that mexican imigrants will dillute american culture (especialy if you read Samuel Taylor Huntington who specializes in forseeing grave threats to protestant white american values). But "The language issue is largely a red herring: most newly arrived Hispanic families have become fluent in English by the second generation, just as previous waves of immigrants did before them. But the argumentthat illegal immigrants take jobs away from many equally unskilled native-born Americans, and drive wages down for the rest, has never been convincingly refuted, even though it remains politically incorrect." Dyer.
Contrary to popular belief only 1 in 8 people in the US are first generation immigrants. Comperable to europe and much less than canadas 1 in 5. Furthermore illeagle immigrants assimilate withing a generation or two, just as quickly as any other wave of immigrants (per capita Irish imigration in during the potatoe famine was greater than Mexican imigration now).
The reason the US government cannot seem to formulate a coheratn policy on imigration is that there exists a powerful economic lobby "that actively wants a large, steady flow of unskilled immigrants, preferably illegal ones."
Just my opinion.
Love thy neighbor as thyself
Grob
I would just like to add, the arguement that the US cannot effectivly and humanely police such a large border is ridiculous. The US is the richest country on earth has put men on the moon and spends more on its military than the next 20 biggest spenders combined. Beyond being rich americans are also very creative and ingenious. Hmm huge amounts of money man power and creativity. I think it can be done. Whether or not it should is another question one I am not up to answering.
Grob
Grob
You live in BC. You visit California or AZ and confirm to yourself Mexican communities speak English. They do not. This is not a red Herring. I also have not seen the racial aspect. I think that's the red herring.
As for Mexico being the 'enemy'; while that's not my view, they are politicaly against us and our policies in the international community. They have much more in common with France.
I understand Canada has volunteered to accept mass migration from Mexico and wish them all the luck in the world.
I'm even willing to vote to fund signs pointing north.
Societies do not stand that are overun.
While the 'anti immigrant' card has been played in the US before; against the Catholic Irish, for instance, they came here legally and met needs. The old saw that illegal immigrants add more in tax revenue than they take in resources is no longer true. Who will pay, then, to allow people to break the law?
munk
As for Mexico being the 'enemy'; while that's not my view, they are politicaly against us and our policies in the international community. They have much more in common with France.
I understand Canada has volunteered to accept mass migration from Mexico and wish them all the luck in the world.
I'm even willing to vote to fund signs pointing north.
Societies do not stand that are overun.
While the 'anti immigrant' card has been played in the US before; against the Catholic Irish, for instance, they came here legally and met needs. The old saw that illegal immigrants add more in tax revenue than they take in resources is no longer true. Who will pay, then, to allow people to break the law?
munk
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2001
- Messages
- 4,501
Putting up fences, militarizing the border, that just doesn't seem like the solution of a great nation to me. When we resort to that, something will have been lost.
I also have a feeling it'll be about as successful as the ridiculous "War on Drugs."
I also have a feeling it'll be about as successful as the ridiculous "War on Drugs."
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2005
- Messages
- 19,793
I am not anti immigrant. But I do think Mexico is an enemy.
China, btw, is very busily putting up a fence between themselves and NK as we speak.
China, btw, is very busily putting up a fence between themselves and NK as we speak.
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2001
- Messages
- 4,501
Hey, Andy, the fact that China's doing it should tell you something! I'm not just trying to single you out here either with my previous comment. I have mixed feelings about fences myself, but they scare me.
- Joined
- Oct 9, 2003
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- 5,594
I am pro-fence. I think we ought to build a fence and control immigration very tightly the way all other countries do.
there comes a point where the American dream becomes the American nightmare.
There is a constant flow of good jobs to third world nations and of third world people into the USA.
I know it sounds draconian and merciless, but do we really want to sacrifice what we have for nothing in return?
Build the fence. Control immigration the way other countries do. In Japan, you have to have a job before you can move here. To get that job, you have to demonstrate some skill that a native Japanese person could not easily do.
Many countries have the same policy. A job is a valuable thing. You can work or you can starve.
There is a thing going on that many people may not realize.
we pay prices for things that are actually beneath their real-world value because there are people in other countries that will work for next to nothing.
It's called "relative deprivation."
It's not so easy to fix, but there are some things we must all accept.
When you buy a TV for 100$, you are keeping dozens of Chinese workers in business.
when you buy an American-made TV for 350$, you are keeping a dozen American workers in business.
It costs more, but it costs less. You're out more money upfront, but you are keeping your neighbor employed and he's keeping you employed. That TV money has to come from somewhere.
We have poor people on welfare? Cant find jobs? these are American citizens?
they move to Southern California. they pick lettuce. We pay them legal wages and lettuce goes up 2$ a head.
We pay more, but we pay less.
So, build the fence, buy American-made products and keep your country's welfare in mind.
there comes a point where the American dream becomes the American nightmare.
There is a constant flow of good jobs to third world nations and of third world people into the USA.
I know it sounds draconian and merciless, but do we really want to sacrifice what we have for nothing in return?
Build the fence. Control immigration the way other countries do. In Japan, you have to have a job before you can move here. To get that job, you have to demonstrate some skill that a native Japanese person could not easily do.
Many countries have the same policy. A job is a valuable thing. You can work or you can starve.
There is a thing going on that many people may not realize.
we pay prices for things that are actually beneath their real-world value because there are people in other countries that will work for next to nothing.
It's called "relative deprivation."
It's not so easy to fix, but there are some things we must all accept.
When you buy a TV for 100$, you are keeping dozens of Chinese workers in business.
when you buy an American-made TV for 350$, you are keeping a dozen American workers in business.
It costs more, but it costs less. You're out more money upfront, but you are keeping your neighbor employed and he's keeping you employed. That TV money has to come from somewhere.
We have poor people on welfare? Cant find jobs? these are American citizens?
they move to Southern California. they pick lettuce. We pay them legal wages and lettuce goes up 2$ a head.
We pay more, but we pay less.
So, build the fence, buy American-made products and keep your country's welfare in mind.
In Japan citizenship is also based on race. Without an ethnic Japanese parent (or it may be grandparent I'm not sure of the specifics) you cannot become a japanese citizen. If you believe in free economic competition buy products of the highest quality and the lowest price wherever those two factors meet acording to your means and needs. I buy japanese cars becuase in my experiance they are of higher quality than others but cheaper than german cars.
I'm lost Grob; what is the point of mentioning Japanese racisim if it will not change your decision to buy their products?
I haven't noticed German autos costing less than Japanese; it's just the opposite, historically. (last 40 years) May have changed, I dunno.
I think Mercedes Benz Chrysler has some awesome products.
I have a Subaru now and a Dodge Dakota truck.
I'll always give Domestic the first crack at my dollar, but I'm not chained to them. If I were, I'd be doing them and myself a gross disservice.
munk
I haven't noticed German autos costing less than Japanese; it's just the opposite, historically. (last 40 years) May have changed, I dunno.
I think Mercedes Benz Chrysler has some awesome products.
I have a Subaru now and a Dodge Dakota truck.
I'll always give Domestic the first crack at my dollar, but I'm not chained to them. If I were, I'd be doing them and myself a gross disservice.
munk
- Joined
- Jul 10, 2003
- Messages
- 1,601
I love the canard that since America is the richest country we should do X. If you want the richest country to do X, then either move here legally and get citizenship to vote, or else get your political leaders to do it.
We didn't invent missiles. Someone else did. Americans turned them to purposes others didn't.
Americans didn't invent the idea of flight, Americans made it work.
Artillery? Nope.
Steam power? Nope.
Automobiles? Nope
It always seems to be that what America isn't the place where everything is invented. We just take those good ideas and tinker with them to produce something better.
I haven't decided on the fence. I think that the best of this nation is that people that have a burning need to better themselves can come here and do so. But I'm also decidely of the opinion that illegal immigration is just that. Illegal. Therefore I'm pro-legal immigration. If I was the sole person in charge I'd round up all illegal immigrants, deport them, and hand them a stamped envelope containing an application to legally immigrate. If you want something, then get it. But follow the rules, or else suffer the consequences.
Although I'm still working on the documentation it appears that my Grandmother's parents were both enrolled Cherokees. At most that would make me 1/4 blooded. That enough for whoever asked? The rest of me is Scotch Irish, English (the worst part), Black Irish (family legend), and perhaps German from the geneology. At least that's all I'm claiming. So I figure that makes me a pure American Mongrel.
Mexico is acting as our enemy, encouraging people to violate our laws. If France was doing the same to Germany what would the Germans have to say?
As for us killing the native population. Sure we did. Seems that I learned in a class that most of the natives were killed by disease that those nasty old Immigrants brought with them. Small pox, plague, god only knows what else. That might be another good reason to limit immigration, to limit the spread of none-native disease. perhaps diseases that have been virtually eliminated here in the states.
Grob, What else do you know about Japan?
We didn't invent missiles. Someone else did. Americans turned them to purposes others didn't.
Americans didn't invent the idea of flight, Americans made it work.
Artillery? Nope.
Steam power? Nope.
Automobiles? Nope
It always seems to be that what America isn't the place where everything is invented. We just take those good ideas and tinker with them to produce something better.
I haven't decided on the fence. I think that the best of this nation is that people that have a burning need to better themselves can come here and do so. But I'm also decidely of the opinion that illegal immigration is just that. Illegal. Therefore I'm pro-legal immigration. If I was the sole person in charge I'd round up all illegal immigrants, deport them, and hand them a stamped envelope containing an application to legally immigrate. If you want something, then get it. But follow the rules, or else suffer the consequences.
Although I'm still working on the documentation it appears that my Grandmother's parents were both enrolled Cherokees. At most that would make me 1/4 blooded. That enough for whoever asked? The rest of me is Scotch Irish, English (the worst part), Black Irish (family legend), and perhaps German from the geneology. At least that's all I'm claiming. So I figure that makes me a pure American Mongrel.
Mexico is acting as our enemy, encouraging people to violate our laws. If France was doing the same to Germany what would the Germans have to say?
As for us killing the native population. Sure we did. Seems that I learned in a class that most of the natives were killed by disease that those nasty old Immigrants brought with them. Small pox, plague, god only knows what else. That might be another good reason to limit immigration, to limit the spread of none-native disease. perhaps diseases that have been virtually eliminated here in the states.
Grob, What else do you know about Japan?
- Joined
- Nov 3, 1998
- Messages
- 4,331
Grob, not only does this not sound accurate, I believe I found that we were- at least until 2001- actually out-spent by the Japanese!
Tell you what, when I get back from work tonight, write the paper I need to complete, and do some other things that need doing, I'll look for my sources. In the meantime, I'd love to see yours.
John
I'd like to point out to my very dear friend 45/70 that though the US did not invent all the things he listed, during the Industrial Revolution, had more patents, more breakthroughs and progress than any nation. If I'm wrong about that, my schooling is also amiss. Wouldn't be the first time.
munk
munk
- Joined
- Oct 9, 2003
- Messages
- 5,594
What I said had nothing to do with citizenship. I'm talking about legal residency and legal employment in a country other than the one you were born in.
What I'm saying is, as a foreigner, you cant even get a green card to work at McDonalds in Japan without a four year college degree.
Imagine telling all those Mexicans they had to go to college if they even wanted to pick lettuce!
Thats how it is in Japan and most countries. They recognize the value of jobs and protect them with zeal.
Munk
Sorry for not clarifying Munk I meant them as seperate points. I guess I did not make myself particularly clear. I meant that I buy Japanese cars becuase of their quality and price both of which are good. I agree that they cost less than German cars (also excelent quality). Good choices in cars Munk (my current is a dakota as well, last was a subaru forester).
Spectre
My source is the Library of congress you can see the report at http://www.fas.org/man/crs/RL32209.pdf. Certainly enough to uphold my premis that the US is a wealthy nation and can afford to police its border if a coherant policy is formulated.
45-70
I was not make any perscriptive claims about US policy, only that immigration policy seems to be heavily influenced by an economic lobby that wants an illeagle imigrant workforce. As to inventivness and wealth I have said that the US has the ingenuity and the resources to police the mexican border effectivly and humanly should such a policy be put in place not whether or not they should (I dont know). I'm not sure who the killing the native population comment is at, I'm going to assume its not me since I never mentioned it.
All
I dont take differences of opinion (especialy political ones) personaly I hope no one who reads my writing does either.
Grob
Sorry for not clarifying Munk I meant them as seperate points. I guess I did not make myself particularly clear. I meant that I buy Japanese cars becuase of their quality and price both of which are good. I agree that they cost less than German cars (also excelent quality). Good choices in cars Munk (my current is a dakota as well, last was a subaru forester).
Spectre
My source is the Library of congress you can see the report at http://www.fas.org/man/crs/RL32209.pdf. Certainly enough to uphold my premis that the US is a wealthy nation and can afford to police its border if a coherant policy is formulated.
45-70
I was not make any perscriptive claims about US policy, only that immigration policy seems to be heavily influenced by an economic lobby that wants an illeagle imigrant workforce. As to inventivness and wealth I have said that the US has the ingenuity and the resources to police the mexican border effectivly and humanly should such a policy be put in place not whether or not they should (I dont know). I'm not sure who the killing the native population comment is at, I'm going to assume its not me since I never mentioned it.
All
I dont take differences of opinion (especialy political ones) personaly I hope no one who reads my writing does either.
Grob
Grob, I did not take your idea of policing the border ill, nor the observation about Japanese racial preference. I just wondered what the latter was about and am still thinking about the former.
I am thinking as long as the War on Illegal drugs is on, putting a bureacracy on the border next to a fence only spells disaster and corruption.
munk
I am thinking as long as the War on Illegal drugs is on, putting a bureacracy on the border next to a fence only spells disaster and corruption.
munk
A physical wall may not be a long-term solution, but I believe it is better that we have it than not.
I have a more radical solution. Let's debit Mexico's balance of trade account with us for $10,000 for every Mexican illegal immigrant that is in the country. Let's see that's about 10 million times 10,000 = $100 billion per year. Yup, I can see them racing to build a wall on their side of the border now.
Then there is Israel and the Palestinians. The Palestinians say a wall won't work either, but what choice do you have if you are an Israeli that have been and will continue to be at war with them indefinitely with no peace in sight.
I have a more radical solution. Let's debit Mexico's balance of trade account with us for $10,000 for every Mexican illegal immigrant that is in the country. Let's see that's about 10 million times 10,000 = $100 billion per year. Yup, I can see them racing to build a wall on their side of the border now.
Then there is Israel and the Palestinians. The Palestinians say a wall won't work either, but what choice do you have if you are an Israeli that have been and will continue to be at war with them indefinitely with no peace in sight.
Anybody not recognizing Pogo probably is too young for our Cantina demographic anyway.
I honestly think we don't want to solve the problem of illegal immigration. We are too lazy to mow our own lawns, dig our own ditches and like going out to eat at local restaurants.
In the Silicon Valley there are hundreds of latino gardeners that roam the suburbs knocking on doors asking if you want professional lawn care. If you want grunt labor go to the local mega hardware store and pick from any one of dozens of day laborers. I seriously doubt these latinos are just hanging out for the fresh air. They fill a need. It's hard to find any restaurant that isn't nearly 100% staffed by latinos. Construction is another industry that has huge numbers of latinos.
INS could solve the problem with day laborers overnight by hitting those that hire them for paying under the table to illegals. Does the INS dare to tread into suburbia and piss off soccor moms and local general contractors? The border patrol practices catch and release at great expense and what do we have to show for it? I travel in the southwest a lot on vacation and see a lot of Border Patrol agents not doing a whole lot. I think illegal immigration is hurting our country, but we lack the balls to do anything about it.
I find it kind of ironic that Vicente Fox is calling the wall a shame and travesty and all sorts of other crap. He's upset that America is trying to keep citizens of his country from fleeing to a better life?
I honestly think we don't want to solve the problem of illegal immigration. We are too lazy to mow our own lawns, dig our own ditches and like going out to eat at local restaurants.
In the Silicon Valley there are hundreds of latino gardeners that roam the suburbs knocking on doors asking if you want professional lawn care. If you want grunt labor go to the local mega hardware store and pick from any one of dozens of day laborers. I seriously doubt these latinos are just hanging out for the fresh air. They fill a need. It's hard to find any restaurant that isn't nearly 100% staffed by latinos. Construction is another industry that has huge numbers of latinos.
INS could solve the problem with day laborers overnight by hitting those that hire them for paying under the table to illegals. Does the INS dare to tread into suburbia and piss off soccor moms and local general contractors? The border patrol practices catch and release at great expense and what do we have to show for it? I travel in the southwest a lot on vacation and see a lot of Border Patrol agents not doing a whole lot. I think illegal immigration is hurting our country, but we lack the balls to do anything about it.
I find it kind of ironic that Vicente Fox is calling the wall a shame and travesty and all sorts of other crap. He's upset that America is trying to keep citizens of his country from fleeing to a better life?