Bummed about my new Council boys FSS axe

J

jagtech

Joined
Mar 22, 2011
Messages
22
Just got my new Council FSS boys axe from Omaha Knife and I'm disappointed. I read great stuff on the forum about this company and axe. Decided to pay a little extra and get the FSS because it was supposed to be held to a higher standard. The head looks ok, nothing a file can't sort out. The handle on the other hand has the grain going completely the wrong way. I'll try to contact council tomorrow and see if they will help. I have read good things about their customer service. I bought American because I was hoping for a better product. We all make mistakes, at this point I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.
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I had a cs riflemans hawk with a haft that had the same grain structure. Abused it and nothing bad happened.
 
I have used my fair share of axes with the exact same grain structure, and they work just fine. Especially for a non full sized axe it will be totally fine.

Thanks.

~Zim
 
Its not what i would consider a defect, per se. Most of the folks who give that suggestion legs probably never broke an axe handle before, although not all. However, I though that on the FSS version the grain was supposed to be within 45 degrees of straight.
 
The real question is if there's any grain runout on the handle. THAT's the flaw to look for. :)
 
G-pig said:
Its not what i would consider a defect, per se. Most of the folks who give that suggestion legs probably never broke an axe handle before, although not all. However, I though that on the FSS version the grain was supposed to be within 45 degrees of straight.
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45 degrees would be ok. This handle is 90 degrees to the head. I was hoping for a higher attention to detail.
 
jagtech said:
45 degrees would be ok. This handle is 90 degrees to the head. I was hoping for a higher attention to detail.
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I feel that if a guy is paying for a higher end axe that it should be put together with care out of decent materials. I was in a huge sporting goods store last year looking for a Wetterlings hatchet. The 3-4 that they had left had ridiculously cockeyed\canted heads or messed up wood. Why a factory known for quality would let that many junkers go in a shipment discusted me. I Immediately bought a G. Brucks instead.............................. Ok, I got a Wett. hatchet later when I could eyeball a new shipment. :D
 
If that is a curved handle there will be run out like crazy. Fine growth rings also.
 
The Federal Supply System (FSS) specifications for the Forest Service axes don't seem to mention grain alignment of the handles per se:

"...3.2.2 Handles. The handles shall be shagbark hickory (Carya ovate), shellbark hickory (Carya laciniosa), or
mockernut hickory (Carya tomentosa) of any natural commercial color. The handle dimensions shall conform
in all respects to drawings MTDC-546 for Type A, MTDC-547 for Type C, and MTDC-548 for Type D. The high
point of the handle shoulder shall be as detailed on the drawings. The handle centerline shall be parallel to the
cutting edge of the ax blade. Each handle shall have a wedging slot cut in the head end as shown on the
drawings for the insertion of the wedge. The handle shall fit snugly into the eye of the tool head (see 3.2.3).
The knob end of the handles shall be chamfered or rounded. The wood shall be sound and free from crooks,
bows, cracks, splits, scores, or other defects that may affect appearance or serviceability."


But, maybe it's considered a "defect that may affect appearance or serviceability"???

Another possibility is that the related drawing 548B specifies the grain alignment, but I can't view the drawings because the viewer isn't compatible with Firefox.

By the way, here's the steel type specified for the FSS axes:

"3.2.1.1 Steel composition. The tool head of each type of ax shall be forged from fully killed plain carbon AISI/
SAE steel containing 0.72 to 0.93 percent carbon, 0.30 to 0.90 percent manganese, not more than 0.040
percent phosphorus, and not more than 0.050 percent sulfur. Steel composition of the head shall be deter-
mined as specified in 4.5.1.1."


FSS Specifications and drawings can be found here:
http://www.fs.fed.us/t-d/programs/fire/specs.htm
http://www.fs.fed.us/t-d/programs/fire/documents/5100_9D.pdf
http://www.fs.fed.us/t-d/programs/fire/documents/0548/548B_dwf.ZIP
 
I have and have used (extensively in trailwork) axe handles with that kind of orientation. I've never had a problem. I guess I just don't pay much weigh to grain orientation anymore. I just want the handle to be straight / true. But then I don't buy many new axes.

If you are disappointed, I suggest contacting Council to return it. In my experience, council tool axes (even the Velvicut) need some fine tuning (sharpening,etc) out of the box.
 
Thomas Linton said:
Drawings don't help. (I could see them with FireFox.)

I see heartwood in the OP's handle. 0___0
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Heartwood has been found in numerous studies NOT to have any affect on performance. Doesn't keep the myth from living on, though. :)
 
Operator1975 said:
We need to get off the grain orientation train.
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Peter Vido would agree. He previously told me he's seen many, many examples of vintage axes used in his neck of the woods that have the grain running in the opposite direction of how they are "supposed" to be. These were hard-used axes with the old-style thin handles, and they were still going strong. His local maker of axe handles is an old timer who is still at it, and who doesn't follow Bernie Weisgerber's recommendation about grain orientation (evidently his customers over the years haven't been breaking his handles with the grain running the "wrong" way, even though they are only 3/4" or less thick at mid-length).

And with all those detailed specs from the Forest Service about their axes, and not one mention of grain alignment that I've seen, maybe (with their experience) they don't see what the fuss is about either.
 
Steve Tall said:
Peter Vido would agree. He previously told me he's seen many, many examples of vintage axes used in his neck of the woods that have the grain running in the opposite direction of how they are "supposed" to be. These were hard-used axes with the old-style thin handles, and they were still going strong. His local maker of axe handles is an old timer who is still at it, and who doesn't follow Bernie Weisgerber's recommendation about grain orientation (evidently his customers over the years haven't been breaking his handles with the grain running the "wrong" way, even though they are only 3/4" or less thick at mid-length).

And with all those detailed specs from the Forest Service about their axes, and not one mention of grain alignment that I've seen, maybe (with their experience) they don't see what the fuss is about either.
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Interesting stuff, Steve. My neighbor, who is in his 60's, has all of his fathers axes who's since passed away. They all have handles his father carved, and still have the edges he put on them from some years ago. On every one ive seen, the grain is going the exact wrong way, but the piece is oriented so the slight off set allows for mostly through running grain in the upper third of the handle where (probably?) the most force is. In general, I try to keep 2/3rds of the grain continual especially through higher stress areas which usually have curves.
 
Wouldn't it make for a "springy-er" handle if the grain runs perpendicular to the head????

I have broken a few handles over the years. Mostly due to wrenching on them crazy hard when they get stuck. Replacing a handle is not that big of a deal to me, so I'm not all that careful with them. My experience has led me to pick out handles with priorities something like this:

1. Size, fit to eye, lack of major blemishes, and desired shape.
2. Straightness.
3. Grain density. Super dense handles are brittle and transmit much more shock. The best wood is smooth and buttery in appearance. Avoid handles with wide bands of the porous growth.
4. Through running grain.
5. Grain orientation.
 
We need to get off the grain orientation train.
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Yeah, people are obsessed with it. I feel bad for manufactures who have to continually have to answer these issues. I bet the old timers never worried about it.
 
A friend of mine just ordered a FS Boys axe (a few days ago) from CT based on my recommendation of it...I had told him that there were many great reviews of it, including nice grain alignment in the helve. I hope he gets a nice one. He'll let me know when he gets it.

Tom
 
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