Bummed about my new Council boys FSS axe

A quick search about baseball bat grain orientation yields some interesting studies done by MLB. From what I've read, Ash baseball bats have more issues with breaking, when the grain orientation is ignored by the hitter. Maple, OTOH, seems to be just fine no matter which way the hitter uses it.

Sure, an axe and a baseball bat are dealing with different types of forces and concentrations. But, I'm curious if the grain orientation "myth" for axes originates from the baseball world?

I would also add that these "old timers" also knew how to swing an axe, didn't overswing the target nor used excessive power. I may be wrong in that regard, I can't make claims as to their skill.

Anyway, I just got my Council Tools FS Boy's Axe, as I was typing this. It looks pretty damn good, the shape of the head, the edge(could be tuned up), and the handle looks and feels great. The grain is leaning at about a 45 degree angle, the grain is on the small side, and the eye looks very good. There's a slight gap on each end of the eye, the wedge touches on each end, but the sides are right up against the walls of the eye. I'm pleased with the axe, it is what it is, and sending it back for another would be a waste of money. I'll keep it, and use it, replace the handle if it ever needs it, and move on.
 
foxx said:
A quick search about baseball bat grain orientation yields some interesting studies done by MLB. From what I've read, Ash baseball bats have more issues with breaking, when the grain orientation is ignored by the hitter. Maple, OTOH, seems to be just fine no matter which way the hitter uses it.

Sure, an axe and a baseball bat are dealing with different types of forces and concentrations. But, I'm curious if the grain orientation "myth" for axes originates from the baseball world?

I would also add that these "old timers" also knew how to swing an axe, didn't overswing the target nor used excessive power. I may be wrong in that regard, I can't make claims as to their skill.

Anyway, I just got my Council Tools FS Boy's Axe, as I was typing this. It looks pretty damn good, the shape of the head, the edge(could be tuned up), and the handle looks and feels great. The grain is leaning at about a 45 degree angle, the grain is on the small side, and the eye looks very good. There's a slight gap on each end of the eye, the wedge touches on each end, but the sides are right up against the walls of the eye. I'm pleased with the axe, it is what it is, and sending it back for another would be a waste of money. I'll keep it, and use it, replace the handle if it ever needs it, and move on.
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That's the way to do it! :):thumbup:
 
foxx said:
A quick search about baseball bat grain orientation yields some interesting studies done by MLB. From what I've read, Ash baseball bats have more issues with breaking, when the grain orientation is ignored by the hitter. Maple, OTOH, seems to be just fine no matter which way the hitter uses it.
Click to expand...

Ash and maple have some very different properties. I knew a timber framer whose ash mallet delaminated lickity split. some handles do that too. Hickory, Maple and other stuff is not as laminated as ash it. very distinct growth layers, it doesnt turn on a lathe too clean either.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
Heartwood has been found in numerous studies NOT to have any affect on performance. Doesn't keep the myth from living on, though. :)
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I can find one federal publication referring to studies with no details about them and another federal publication citing the first, secondary source. I find one industry publication saying some heartwood does not weaken a handle significantly.

Are there any primary sources on such studies rather than hearsay?
 
G-pig said:
Ash and maple have some very different properties. I knew a timber framer whose ash mallet delaminated lickity split. some handles do that too. Hickory, Maple and other stuff is not as laminated as ash it. very distinct growth layers, it doesnt turn on a lathe too clean either.
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You can see a warped handle with pretty much any kind of grain orientation......
 
Thomas Linton said:
I can find one federal publication referring to studies with no details about them and another federal publication citing the first, secondary source. I find one industry publication saying some heartwood does not weaken a handle significantly.

Are there any primary sources on such studies rather than hearsay?
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I do believe it is on the Tuhati website if I remember correctly
 
It may be a myth. I lack personal knowledge sufficient to form an opinion. I have never used an axe with a "cross-grained" handle, so I have no basis for comparison. I simply followed what my great grandfather told my grandfather as the latter related it to me.

G-pig said:
http://axeconnected.blogspot.com/2011/02/weak-handles.html

Thanks again, Peter.

Get your studies off mah axe handles.
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From the linked article:
Much of the handle-related discussions (at least in the forums I have read) concern grain alignment. Yes, that is a pertinent strength-related issue, and I certainly agree that the closer a handle maker can come to the vertically positioned and continuous grain, the better.
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http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?130017-grain-orientation-for-an-axe-handle
From top to bottom is the proper way as the handle is stronger and less likely to weaken from flexing due to the grain wanting to slide against each other, the same with hammer handles. and the old timers picked their floor joists with the top to bottom as they are much stronger than quarter sawn joists. In my 50+ years as a blacksmith I literally replaced thousands of Axe, Sledge, Hatchet and hammer handles. This was the way I was taught by my Father and he by his Father. I usually got the job of putting in the handles by the customers as there is basically one size made on the handles and their are many different sized eyes depending on who manufactured the tool and they bought handles in bulk sized to just squeeze into their own eyes.
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http://www.woodsdrummer.com/ml02.html
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http://www.oldjimbo.com/survival/axes.html
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Thomas Linton said:
It may be a myth. I lack personal knowledge sufficient to form an opinion. I have never used an axe with a "cross-grained" handle, so I have no basis for comparison. I simply followed what my great grandfather told my grandfather as the latter related it to me.



From the linked article:

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http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?130017-grain-orientation-for-an-axe-handle

*************************************
http://www.woodsdrummer.com/ml02.html
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http://www.oldjimbo.com/survival/axes.html
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Peter did state the importance of continual grain, which seems to be a growing awareness. It was almost never mentioned when I started following axes in 08 or so. There is a reason straight grain is preferable, because it generally enables through running grain in a curved handle. In a straight handle, it is usually through running regardless. In Peter's little Sandviks case, it was made from a branch that was curved the right way when cut. Thats my theory of it all anyway.
 
Thomas Linton said:
I can find one federal publication referring to studies with no details about them and another federal publication citing the first, secondary source. I find one industry publication saying some heartwood does not weaken a handle significantly.

Are there any primary sources on such studies rather than hearsay?
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Here's one publication that goes into some of the dynamics of heartwood and sapwood. Just the first thing that turned up. There's lots out there if you use the right search terms--think engineering and the like. :)
 
Lots of good info here.I probably would never break this handle during normal use. The grain doesn't run all the way through the handle because of the orientation and the curve.I guess for me it's the point of paying a little extra for the FSS and wanting more attention to the details. If they made a Velvicut Boys axe I would have bought that. I called Council today and was told to email pics and they would get back to me,I guess I'll see.
 
garry3 said:
If you think grain orientation means nothing, just look down a warped handle.
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Or swing a hammer for a couple of decades.

Grain matters. Poor grains break. I've replaced too many handles to dismiss grain orientation.
 
Thomas Linton said:
I can find one federal publication referring to studies with no details about them and another federal publication citing the first, secondary source. I find one industry publication saying some heartwood does not weaken a handle significantly.

Are there any primary sources on such studies rather than hearsay?
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Red Hickory as Strong as White Hickory

USFS Forest Products Laboratory, published July, 1936
 
Square_peg said:
Or swing a hammer for a couple of decades.

Grain matters. Poor grains break. I've replaced too many handles to dismiss grain orientation.
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I don't think anyone is saying that grain doesn't matter--just that horizontal grain alignment doesn't necessarily mean that your axe handle is going to self destruct on you. It's over-emphasized, but still important to consider because of it being a common indicator of grain runout, which is the real culprit to be watchful of.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
I don't think anyone is saying that grain doesn't matter--just that horizontal grain alignment doesn't necessarily mean that your axe handle is going to self destruct on you. It's over-emphasized, but still important to consider because of it being a common indicator of grain runout, which is the real culprit to be watchful of.
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Yeah, my point is that I've had issues with grain runout and with extremely dense, brittle grain. I have yet to break a handle that I felt was because of the grain orientation.
 
foxx said:
A quick search about baseball bat grain orientation yields some interesting studies done by MLB. From what I've read, Ash baseball bats have more issues with breaking, when the grain orientation is ignored by the hitter. Maple, OTOH, seems to be just fine no matter which way the hitter uses it....
Click to expand...

That study (which found that maple was strong enough no matter what the grain direction was) could be totally relevant here. The predominant material for axe handles made in Peter Vido's neck of the woods is rock maple.

An axe handle with the "perfect grain" seems more inclined to warp (not saying it will, if it's well-dried first), since the most likely direction for warping will have less resistance to bending (less thickness to bend) when compared to an axe handle with grain running totally the "wrong" way.

The direction of warping, if it does happen, seems worse for "perfect" grain, compared with totally "wrong" grain. If the "perfect" grain warps, the axe handle is not usable until it's somehow bent back. If the "wrong" grain warps (in a single bit handle), the resulting curvature could still be usable. An old book I read (title forgotten) actually recommended the "wrong" grain for axe handles for exactly this reason.

Peter Vido sent me a couple 40" handles appropriate for Puget Sound felling axes. He "special ordered" them from the town's old-timer handle maker. Knowing that I preferred the "perfect" grain (based on popular readings about axes), he asked the guy to make it with vertical grain. "I don't know...", the guy hesitated. In the end, the guy made one with "perfect" grain, and one the way he normally would make it (with the grain in the totally "wrong" direction). By the time the handles were delivered to me, the one with the "perfect' grain was warped.

Again, this guy uses rock maple for his handles. And if maple is strong enough in any grain direction, then his customers wouldn't be bringing back broken handles due to the "wrong" grain direction, and it makes sense that other factors (like warping potential) would be the deciding factor for how he aligns the grain.

But back to Peter's post about "weak" handles. He agrees that vertical grain is generally stronger, but he shows that deviations from this "ideal" can be made for other reasons (available materials, curvatures and continuous grain, warping potential of less-dry wood), and still result in an axe handle that is plenty strong.

Maybe the hickory handles from modern makers tend to come in random grain alignments (and the FSS specs don't mention grain alignment) because in general the handles are plenty strong regardless of alignment (with the exception of some bad examples of non-continuous grain), and the makers figured it wasn't worth taking the extra time.
 
As far as red hickory being every bit as strong as white. I don't fully buy it. In working with hickory, I've found the red to be softer and stringier. The red pulls apart more easily. For awhile now, I've wondered if these reports of red and white hickory being equal have been motivated by a desire to reduce the waste of red hickory. The article linked by Pegs does more than hint that this may be the case. That being said, for practical applications as an axe or hammer handle red hickory seems to work just fine. I haven't had any issues with it, but I don't believe that it is 100% of what white hickory is.
 
Steve Tall said:
That study (which found that maple was strong enough no matter what the grain direction was) could be totally relevant here. The predominant material for axe handles made in Peter Vido's neck of the woods is rock maple.

An axe handle with the "perfect grain" seems more inclined to warp (not saying it will, if it's well-dried first), since the most likely direction for warping will have less resistance to bending (less thickness to bend) when compared to an axe handle with grain running totally the "wrong" way.

The direction of warping, if it does happen, seems worse for "perfect" grain, compared with totally "wrong" grain. If the "perfect" grain warps, the axe handle is not usable until it's somehow bent back. If the "wrong" grain warps (in a single bit handle), the resulting curvature could still be usable. An old book I read (title forgotten) actually recommended the "wrong" grain for axe handles for exactly this reason.

Peter Vido sent me a couple 40" handles appropriate for Puget Sound felling axes. He "special ordered" them from the town's old-timer handle maker. Knowing that I preferred the "perfect" grain (based on popular readings about axes), he asked the guy to make it with vertical grain. "I don't know...", the guy hesitated. In the end, the guy made one with "perfect" grain, and one the way he normally would make it (with the grain in the totally "wrong" direction). By the time the handles were delivered to me, the one with the "perfect' grain was warped.

Again, this guy uses rock maple for his handles. And if maple is strong enough in any grain direction, then his customers wouldn't be bringing back broken handles due to the "wrong" grain direction, and it makes sense that other factors (like warping potential) would be the deciding factor for how he aligns the grain.

But back to Peter's post about "weak" handles. He agrees that vertical grain is generally stronger, but he shows that deviations from this "ideal" can be made for other reasons (available materials, curvatures and continuous grain, warping potential of less-dry wood), and still result in an axe handle that is plenty strong.

Maybe the hickory handles from modern makers tend to come in random grain alignments (and the FSS specs don't mention grain alignment) because in general the handles are plenty strong regardless of alignment (with the exception of some bad examples of non-continuous grain), and the makers figured it wasn't worth taking the extra time.
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Great post. I have used Sugar/Rock/Hard maple for handles the past few years and i will say it warps like nothing else i've ever used when green. I actually made an offset handle for a hewing axe by thinning a piece with parallel grain structure, leaning against a wall for a day, and carving it to shape. That alone provided enough offset to keep my knuckles for barking. I have to be really careful how I orient handle being hung to dry, because if the sun comes through a window and beats on it for even a couple of hours, it will warp. Coincidentally, a piece with perpendicular grain was left leaning in the sun for several months and didnt warp at all, although it was drier at the time.
 
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