Bushcraft Back Pack

Some of the Savotta packs (the 123 and 323 especially) look pretty good for my needs. Does anyone know of a US retailer? International shipping on those can get spendy.
 
Some popular, similarly-sized packs and their weight and price for comparison:

Frost River 'Bushcraft Junior"
Capacity: 2916 cu. in.
Weight: 5.5 lbs
Price: $280.00

Mystery Ranch "Komodo Dragon:"
Capacity: 2300 cu. in.
Weight: 5lb. 8 oz.
Price: $365 - $460.00

Mystery Ranch "Big Horn:"
Capacity: 3000 cu. in.
Weight: 5lb. 13 oz.
Price: $390 - $449.00

Kifaru "Xing:"
Capacity: 2700 cu. in.
Weight: 5 lbs.
Price: $436

Hill People Gear "Ute"
Capacity: 3500 cu. in.
Weight: 5lbs
Price: $395

Mountainsmith "Lookout 50"
Capacity: 3051 cu. cin
Weight: 4lb. 2oz.
Price: $179.95

Maxpedition "Vulture II"
Capacity: 2810 cu. in.
Weight: 3lb. 8oz.
Price: $176.00

I selected packs that are built with more of an emphasis on durability than ultra-light, ounce shedding packs, which I feel are a different category, and not an accurate comparison. When you eliminate the foreign-made packs (the Maxped & the Mountainsmith) and look just at the domestic packs, the price for the Frost River suddenly doesn't seem so high. In fairness it's totally true that with a Mystery Ranch or a Kifaru, you are getting a suspension system and more modern fabrics. But - you are paying on average at least another $100 for this, if not more. And I think a lot of people would be surprised at how comfortable you can carry a pretty good-sized load in the Bushcraft. Jr. if you are simply mindful about how you pack it (which you should be with any pack). But again, it's intended as a big daypack, or light overnighter, and for that I think it's an acceptable size and weight. If I was going on a longer trip, I would definitely take something with a real suspension system and lighter bare pack weight.

I don't work for Frost River, and I'm not trying to sell anything - just pointing out some interesting comparisons for those that think this pack is ridiculously heavy or expensive.
 
I use an Arcteryx Cierzo. It's 25L - so about 1500L. It weighs about 450grams - a little more than a Leatherman Wave. It's super comfortable because of the materials used for the straps, and I know that people use them as climbing packs - often pulling them up ascents on a rope - and that they last several years in this role. I really can't see why anyone would want to buy a pack that costs several times more on the grounds that they can hand it to their children... Who will probably have 25L packs weighing 100 grams that last for eternity.

But then I don't get the bushcraft thing in general, right down to why people have this obsession with firemaking with ferro rods. If you want a fire, why not use a lighter? And why make a fire when you cook in a few minutes using a jetboil, and a modern softshell will keep you warm in Antarctic conditions - even a soaking British winter - without one? I suppose I have to accept that it's an aesthetic, like that you find in kendo.
 
meanwhile said:
But then I don't get the bushcraft thing in general, right down to why people have this obsession with firemaking with ferro rods. If you want a fire, why not use a lighter? And why make a fire when you cook in a few minutes using a jetboil, and a modern softshell will keep you warm in Antarctic conditions - even a soaking British winter - without one? I suppose I have to accept that it's an aesthetic, like that you find in kendo.
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Because lighters fail, frequently when you need them most - in wet, cold conditions.

Because stoves fail, and are limited by available fuel.

And a modern softshell will not keep you warm in Antartic conditions. Trust me - I have many friends who work down there every year.

If you're never far from a road or a town, you can probably get away with all of the above, with little or no consequence. I like to get far away from roads and towns.
 
liamstrain said:
Some of the Savotta packs (the 123 and 323 especially) look pretty good for my needs. Does anyone know of a US retailer? International shipping on those can get spendy.
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No luck. I had a look and was not able to find any US retailers, or even anyone that would ship to the US. Their site lists retailers in Scandinavia, the UK, Estonia and Russia. :(

Some searching turned up the "fjällräven vintage 30" "duluth wanderer", and "duluth pathfinder" as being similar to the savotta 323, albeit without a frame.
 
meanwhile said:
I use an Arcteryx Cierzo. It's 25L - so about 1500L. It weighs about 450grams - a little more than a Leatherman Wave. It's super comfortable because of the materials used for the straps, and I know that people use them as climbing packs - often pulling them up ascents on a rope - and that they last several years in this role. I really can't see why anyone would want to buy a pack that costs several times more on the grounds that they can hand it to their children... Who will probably have 25L packs weighing 100 grams that last for eternity.

But then I don't get the bushcraft thing in general, right down to why people have this obsession with firemaking with ferro rods. If you want a fire, why not use a lighter? And why make a fire when you cook in a few minutes using a jetboil, and a modern softshell will keep you warm in Antarctic conditions - even a soaking British winter - without one? I suppose I have to accept that it's an aesthetic, like that you find in kendo.
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Maybe because I love to see my daughter using the same gear I used when I was her age?
I dont think its wrong to use modern gear or vintage its what ever gets people outside and enjoying the outdoors imo. My personal pack of choice is an Osprey Kestrel 32 when I am by myself and a Atmos 65 when its me and my daughter.
 
sideways said:
No luck. I had a look and was not able to find any US retailers, or even anyone that would ship to the US. Their site lists retailers in Scandinavia, the UK, Estonia and Russia. :(

Some searching turned up the "fjällräven vintage 30" "duluth wanderer", and "duluth pathfinder" as being similar to the savotta 323, albeit without a frame.
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I found one European site that carries the 123 and will ship to the US. But the shipping nearly doubles the price. They don't carry the 323. :/
 
That's a shame. :(

Also, if such things are important to you, the 123 is not made in Finland like the 323. If you go to their website it's the ones with the blue key under the picture that are made in Finland.
 
Smithhammer said:
Because lighters fail, frequently when you need them most - in wet, cold conditions.
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You can get 5 for a dollar. And lighters are a lot better at igniting tinder than a rod. In fact I remember reading a post by a guy who lives in a rainforest saying that rods were virtually useless to him - if conditions really are bad, then trying to ignite tinder with a ferro is an awful idea compared to using an actual flame.

Because stoves fail, and are limited by available fuel.
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You carry a stove and several lighters. If you are incredibly smart, the lighters live in a baggy.

And a modern softshell will not keep you warm in Antartic conditions. Trust me - I have many friends who work down there every year.
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Crappy fashion oriented Merkan ones probably won't. However Buffalo is virtually standard for British Arctic warfare troops, the British Antarctic Survey prefer Paramo (you can't get it with IR suppressive coatings, which makes it worse than useless for military use) and hardcore ice climbers are split between the two brands. Arguably conditions mountain rescue teams can face in the Scottish Highlands are worse than the Arctic because you can get zapped by an Arctic wind but the air will still have moisture in, vastly increasing the thermal bleed, and they favour the same gear. I think all of these people know more about cold weather gear choice than you probably do.

Both systems pump out moisture even in a water saturated environment, stay warm if wet, self dry, and block wind as well as anything on earth that isn't made of steel. Typically these are worn with warm-while-wet thermal gear that can layer over them when you need extra heating, so you never have to take your rain and wind resistant layer off. The Filson stuff that bushcrafters favour looks great, but it's like comparing a V1 to the (Startrek, not NASA!) Enterprise when you put it against the best that modern technology can do - the Filson won't block the wind very well, its warmth while wet is comparatively poor, it won't self-dry, and it won't pump out sweat if you're in high burn mode.

(The only Americans who seem to use this gear are UL hikers, who have to import it. Possibly because no one else is willing to look like they are wearing a khaki sack, alla Buffalo, or a high tech Smurf, as Paramo seems to believe is the height of fashion.)
 
You can get 5 for a dollar. And lighters are a lot better at igniting tinder than a rod. In fact I remember reading a post by a guy who lives in a rainforest saying that rods were virtually useless to him - if conditions really are bad, then trying to ignite tinder with a ferro is an awful idea compared to using an actual flame.

Because stoves fail, and are limited by available fuel.
You carry a stove and several lighters. If you are incredibly smart, the lighters live in a baggy.
Click to expand...

I don't think you get it or you have a very misconceived notion as what bushcraft is or who bushcraft folks are. I am not sure I even care for the term bushcraft, but since you are using it I will to. It's not an obsession it's merely practicing skills that are not reliant on mechanical or modern technology. Think of it as back-ups. Things fail, sometimes you didn't remember to bring back-up lighters, stoves, batteries whatever. So you have to fall back on your skills to help you get it done. I camp with guys who could start a fire in the driving rain with no lighter or matches. It's a skill they have practiced just like any other outdoor hobbyist. The skills can become their obsession but it's all about knowledge and pushing the limits of how you do things. Bow drill, flint and steel, ferro rod, etc. I have also witnessed plenty of folks who depend on lighters and fuel who couldn't start a fire to save the their lives because they never practiced and don't know anything about proper wood prep. I hate carrying stoves and avoid it at all cost.

Another point is that not all bushcrafters are walking around in Filson and Frost River. There are many who like a mix of gear and some who only use the best modern equipment.

You seem to have a chip on your shoulder, slow your roll and listen to what others are trying to teach you.
 
meanwhile said:
You can get 5 for a dollar. And lighters are a lot better at igniting tinder than a rod. In fact I remember reading a post by a guy who lives in a rainforest saying that rods were virtually useless to him - if conditions really are bad, then trying to ignite tinder with a ferro is an awful idea compared to using an actual flame.



You carry a stove and several lighters. If you are incredibly smart, the lighters live in a baggy.



Crappy fashion oriented Merkan ones probably won't. However Buffalo is virtually standard for British Arctic warfare troops, the British Antarctic Survey prefer Paramo (you can't get it with IR suppressive coatings, which makes it worse than useless for military use) and hardcore ice climbers are split between the two brands. Arguably conditions mountain rescue teams can face in the Scottish Highlands are worse than the Arctic because you can get zapped by an Arctic wind but the air will still have moisture in, vastly increasing the thermal bleed, and they favour the same gear. I think all of these people know more about cold weather gear choice than you probably do.

Both systems pump out moisture even in a water saturated environment, stay warm if wet, self dry, and block wind as well as anything on earth that isn't made of steel. Typically these are worn with warm-while-wet thermal gear that can layer over them when you need extra heating, so you never have to take your rain and wind resistant layer off. The Filson stuff that bushcrafters favour looks great, but it's like comparing a V1 to the (Startrek, not NASA!) Enterprise when you put it against the best that modern technology can do - the Filson won't block the wind very well, its warmth while wet is comparatively poor, it won't self-dry, and it won't pump out sweat if you're in high burn mode.

(The only Americans who seem to use this gear are UL hikers, who have to import it. Possibly because no one else is willing to look like they are wearing a khaki sack, alla Buffalo, or a high tech Smurf, as Paramo seems to believe is the height of fashion.)
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You bet. I have no need to debate any of this.

And best of luck to you.
 
The FR Isle Royale is huge. i do not own one, but a buddy of mine did and i got to spend some time admiring it and the amount of stuff he could put in it.
The 5k cid (or 81L if you prefer) is the amount it can handle properly packed, stuffed to the gills, including stuffing the exterior pockets.
The smaller measurement on the Fr site is the internal volume alone, or possibly with the sides cinched down (a feature that allows you to keep the back loaded tight after consuming half the food and water you brought in with you)
Yes, it's heavy even when empty.
The waxed canvas does not absorb much water, it is very abrasion resistant, it does not snag and tear when encountering thorns, and if a spark/ember from a campfire hits it, the user is not left instantly with a hole they need to patch.
the overall design is well thought out and quite versatile.
It's easy enough to use a piece of CCF as a "frame sheet" to add some structure, just like I do in my patrol pack, or to line the pack with an entire sleeping pad like a bottomless pack basket and then stuff everything inside that.

Duluth Pack makes similar gear using slightly lighter weight materials -- 15 oz canvas instead of 18, they don't add the leather and shearling strap pads, no outside lashing points on most packs, etc...
I suspect the big difference between them is that DP's original customer base needed canoe packs where you want everything inside and nothing on the outside that can snag. FR builds packs for campers/hikers and so accessibility and adaptability to differing needs is part of their design process.
My Duluth Wanderer holds a similar volume as my patrol pack yet weighs less.
DP tends to offer fewer bells and whistles than FR -- but then, the cost is also significantly lower for the stock patterns.

If you want a decent quality modern frame pack, Osprey and Kelty do good things for the budget minded folks as well as the other brands that have been named in this thread.

I tend to buy and use what appeals to me and try to afford others their right to do the same without ridicule, no matter how silly I may consider what they are doing.
 
Does the Duluth Wanderer have any lash points on the bottom, so you could strap a bed roll or compressed bag underneath? The Duluth website doesn't show the bottom or mention them, but I thought I'd ask.
 
Unfortunately the Wanderer and it's big brother the Rambler are both in the category of "no outside lashing points on most packs".
 
Alas. I could add them in, but if I'm already paying that kind of dosh for bag, I'd rather not have to do my own sewing just to get some basic functionality. :/
 
That Frost River Isle Royale is one of the most attractive packs I've ever seen. I'm always right on the edge of ordering a traditional waxed-cotton and leather trimmed pack of some kind.

Stay sharp,
desmobob
 
FWIW, a customer can order pretty much any custom change(s) they want with any of the FR packs and other gear. If you want a pack in the lighter 10.10 oz canvas in lieu of the 18 oz canvas, they will do that. If you want more D rings along with a sternum strap on a particular pack, they will do that.

So, the sky is the limit as to how you may customize your own pack. I asked them about this while I was handling some packs when in their store. They are pretty flexible and easy to work with.
 
I'm about as retro-grouch as they come, but I don't get the appeal of canvas luggage. Canvas luggage has real strong appeal among the retro cycling crowd these days. But I'm not buying it.

I've owned and dealt with tons of canvas gear. Canvas boat tarps, (partially) canvas backpacks, canvas bike messenger bikes (original Doc Martins!), canvas pants, canvas tents, etc, etc...

I've also owned and abused a ton of Cordura gear. Bike panniers and backpacks mostly.

IMO, there is just no comparison in terms of durability. Cordura wins by a long country mile. It's not even close. Canvas is heavier, soaks up water, fails at crease points, fails from abrasion faster, rots from sweat and rots faster from the sun. In my experience, anyway.

If I was looking to replace my packs today (I'm not, my TNF pack purchased in '84 is still chugging along), I would look at Jandd, Mystery Ranch (I knew them as Dana Designs), and Gregory.

For a small, midsized rucksack, I've been beating on a Jandd Zoor Alpinist since the early 90s. All Cordura outer. Insanely tough pack. I'm less impressed with Jandd's big packs, but their small packs are great.
 
Agree that going retro with something as important as a backpack is probably not the best idea, with the hundred years or so of developement that's gone into the current top shelf outdoors gear.

The retro stuff looks really freaking cool, but for the price and weight I can't do it.
 
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