Busse and Kin Edge angles

One way to run narrower edge angles without trashing the edge is to put a microbevel on it. So profile to 12 dps, but then finish with a 15 or 20 dps microbevel.
 
I keep challenging Trolls to put their money where their mouth is --- and they cowardly remain silent. If you're having trouble cutting or chopping through things with a 20 degree (40 inclusive) edge angle --- you need to go get an X-Ray and then see a specialist for how brittle your skeletal structure is. I sharpen/reprofile edges to 19 degrees per side (38 inclusive) for most of my knives and I wail on them as hard as I please without needing to steel or sharpen for many outings. I'm no guru --- but I certainly know what I'm talking about and my edges turn out just fine





 
Gaston444 said:
Exactly my thinking, yet the last time I mentioned this, I was told by a Busse fan:



Now that I know at least someone sharpens INFI to a reasonable thinness, I suppose this means it can actually take it... I have seen many knives by top end custom makers that fail chopping Maple even at 15 per side (and I mean fail in less than 20 strokes): A big RJ Martin in S30V would do micro-folds (a very modest failure that could be detected only as a tiny sideway fold that barely grabs the nail material as your rub the nail, but still unacceptable for ONE hit...), an ACK in 440C at 12 degrees per side (heavy curling), and another 440C knife by Vaughn Neeley, also at 15 degrees per side (crumbling).

Knives that held up included Randalls, Colin Cox, Al Mars in Aus-6 and especially 2 Liles (unmarked if D-2 or 440).

Nice to know then that INFI can actually hold up at useable thin angles. I never could understand anything over 15 per side... Even 15 is really the outer end, more like a good dagger's angle.

Gaston
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I WANT TO PROVE YOU WRONG ---- I challenge you -- do you accept??
 
resinguy said:
One way to run narrower edge angles without trashing the edge is to put a microbevel on it. So profile to 12 dps, but then finish with a 15 or 20 dps microbevel.
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That, or finish with a strop, which basically does the same thing on a smaller scale.

Rob_Mob said:
I keep challenging Trolls to put their money where their mouth is --- and they cowardly remain silent. If you're having trouble cutting or chopping through things with a 20 degree (40 inclusive) edge angle --- you need to go get an X-Ray and then see a specialist for how brittle your skeletal structure is. I sharpen/reprofile edges to 19 degrees per side (38 inclusive) for most of my knives and I wail on them as hard as I please without needing to steel or sharpen for many outings. I'm no guru --- but I certainly know what I'm talking about and my edges turn out just fine





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Yep! :cool: People don't think about the keenness of the apex. Given the same thickness behind the bevel, a 40-degree edge finished to a sub-micron apex will seem sharper than a 20-degree edge poorly finished to a multi-micron apex. Not only that, the 40-degree edge is a lot stronger. As I previously stated, there is very little reason to sharpen at less than 30 degrees on a large blade. I agree that ~35-40 degrees seems more optimal overall, IF properly sharpened. :thumbup: Nice edges BTW!!! :D :cool:
 
resinguy said:
I think you may be misreading Gaston. He seems to like narrow angles as do you.
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I think you might have mis-read RG. I think Gaston is agreeing with MB, and likes inclusive edges below 30 degrees.
 
[In reference to using 12 degrees per side on INFI]

SpyderPhreak said:
Um, really??? :confused: It IS excessively low, and that is one of the craziest things I've ever read here. INFI / SR-101 at 58-60 Rockwell C does not have enough stability to support that thin of an edge under heavy use without some pretty serious edge damage. :rolleyes: Maybe at 62-64 RHC, but then the steel will begin to chip out under any amount of lateral force. You WILL get edge rolling and eventually tear-out with that kind of geometry if you try to baton and/or chop with it, especially on hardwoods. A 20-25 degree edge (inclusive) will hold up under a lot of others kinds of normal use, but not the kind of heavy usage that you're talking about (chopping and digging).

How do I know? BTDT. I sharpened my custom shop Bowie RMD to that kind of edge, and in bit of a drunken chopping session one evening, chopped up a bunch of seasoned Red Oak. The next day, once sober, I was shocked to find that my edge was pretty well trashed. No chips or tear-outs, but it was pretty rippled along nearly its entire length, and I couldn't fully repair the edge by steeling it back straight, Instead, I had to grind away some steel to get it back to normal, and reduced the included angle a bit to ~30 degrees while I was at it.

And below 20 degrees included??? :eek: Come on man, seriously? :rolleyes: Maybe if you're using you Busse as a sushi knife... :p Even many razors are set to a final edge angle of 30 degrees. A ~15 degree straight razor will even have a final edge angle of 25-30 degrees due to micro-convexity after stropping. Don't believe me? I suggest you take a gander at the Science of Sharp. There is little reason to put an edge less than 30 degrees inclusive on a knife much larger than 4-5", especially if it is expected to see hard use. Even in general, at less tan 30 degrees on most steels, the edge is either going to get damaged, or you are going to be sharpening it all the time.
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Seriously?

This is a 440B Randall Model 12 after over 1000 chops in year-old dead dried Maple: Edge angle is around 10 degrees per side on an extra thin 0.020" bevel (knife was laid almost dead flat to the hone). No visible damage to the edge at all...:

P3216938_zpsahae3fvu.jpg


If INFI can't do the same, then INFI is just another inferior steel like many others...

Frankly the mention of a "drunken chopping session" is not exactly what we hope to hear as an objective and valuable evaluation of what a steel can do...

If you can't believe that 12 degrees per side is plenty enough for any decent steel to survive chopping years old dried-out wood (Maple in this case) a thousand times over with no visible damage (even with the bark not stripped to remove dirt particles), then just accept you don't own good enough steel yet, or that chopping in a drunken state is not the best idea... I don't even know why you would bring up that "test" as an example...

Gaston
 
If I beat INFI (or any steel for that matter) 1000 times on hardwood, you will see edge deformation regardless of the inclusive angle. I am either really heavy-handed or my 20x loupe is just that much more sensitive than the camera :D
 
welp.... now that we've all come to a consensus :D.... could anyone recommend a good small field strop to maintain the couple blades that I have with factory convex edges?
 
Dannn Rob, I cant get over how Sweet those Mirror Edges look.
I think I might just send you my display CS WTF to put one of them Mirror edges on it.
 
Gaston444 said:
[In reference to using 12 degrees per side on INFI]



Seriously?

This is a 440B Randall Model 12 after over 1000 chops in year-old dead dried Maple: Edge angle is around 10 degrees per side on an extra thin 0.020" bevel (knife was laid almost dead flat to the hone). No visible damage to the edge at all...:

P3216938_zpsahae3fvu.jpg
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lol :rolleyes: Sorry man, I don't buy it. Between it being 440B and your claim that it is 0.020" behind the edge (I think that's what you meant), there's just no way. That would mean the edge bevel is nearly three times as tall as it is thick (almost 0.060"). No way 440B wouldn't have folded over at 20 degrees inclusive while chopping seasoned Maple. Unless the dent in the small log in the background of that pic is what you chopped 1,000 times... :p It's MUCH more likely that there was a micro-bevel of 30-40 degrees at the edge of that 20-degree bevel.


If INFI can't do the same, then INFI is just another inferior steel like many others...

Frankly the mention of a "drunken chopping session" is not exactly what we hope to hear as an objective and valuable evaluation of what a steel can do...

If you can't believe that 12 degrees per side is plenty enough for any decent steel to survive chopping years old dried-out wood (Maple in this case) a thousand times over with no visible damage (even with the bark not stripped to remove dirt particles), then just accept you don't own good enough steel yet, or that chopping in a drunken state is not the best idea... I don't even know why you would bring up that "test" as an example...

Gaston
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What, you never drink while sitting around a fire, chopping on the wood as you add it? :confused: :p No, I just know that at 24 degrees included, I don't know of many steels that would survive completely undamaged while HEAVY chopping. :rolleyes: Maybe my idea of heavy, manly chopping is different than yours? Chop, chop, choppy! ;)

Sorry, but I've seen too many of your other posts around the forum to be able to take anything you say very seriously. :yawn:
 
nydude said:
welp.... now that we've all come to a consensus :D.... could anyone recommend a good small field strop to maintain the couple blades that I have with factory convex edges?
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PM sent! Mrs. T is making field grade strops even as I post this.
 
Rob_Mob said:
I keep challenging Trolls to put their money where their mouth is --- and they cowardly remain silent. If you're having trouble cutting or chopping through things with a 20 degree (40 inclusive) edge angle --- you need to go get an X-Ray and then see a specialist for how brittle your skeletal structure is.
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Wow, always loved your edge shots, but did you intend to broadly characterize everyone here who prefers a lower angle than you as some kind of cowardly pussy?, b/c that's what it sounds like you just did. :confused:
 
A few thoughts…

Microbevels do not add any meaningful strength, as strength is tied directly to cross sectional thickness.

The edge that fails for somebody drunkenly chopping like an ape does not necessarily fail for somebody employing careful technique which minimizes lateral force to the edge.

The edge that does not fail (even slightly) for it's intended use represents one that is giving up very much when it comes to efficiency when cutting.

Cutting ability is not directly tied to sharpness, it is determined by every inch of the blade that contacts during the cut.

Sharpness is determined by the overall quality of the apex finish, which has little to do with geometry.
 
Here is two little videos i did recently

Look at the first hit of the original edge trash on the wood: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUnD3dze1Z0 , it has always been like this with busse-kin knives (no le or cs)
Then a reground taliwhacker: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdpBjSys658 (it did like a baseball bat at my first attempt with the original edge, no cut on it)
I love busse knives, but putting 60 dollars for a regrind for every knives is a little bit expensive over the years!
 
Apophis said:
Wow, always loved your edge shots, but did you intend to broadly characterize everyone here who prefers a lower angle than you as some kind of cowardly pussy?, b/c that's what it sounds like you just did. :confused:
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Thanks for the kind words ---- But -- No, Not at all --- that user and I have a history of back and forth exchanges. That user has a history of trolling Busse/Bussekin products. That user has a history of borderline harassing people. That user makes broad claims and then refuses to put his money where his mouth is. That user laughs and chastises people who believe anything over 15 degrees each side is suitable.

You definitely misunderstood me. There are plenty of people who legitimately believe in more acute angles and I applaud them. I myself have tried acute angles on certain knives. I do believe it is silly for someone to bash Busse/Bussekin products for not being able to match straight razor edge angles and chop through seasoned wood without edge damage.

Anyone who knows me knows that I'm a nice, patient, and understanding guy ---- but I have no patience for people who behave in a predatory way and intentionally antagonize people. The only thing worse than that kind of forum member is a forum member who does all that and then refuses an opportunity to validate his claims. Look up his thread history --- I'm surprised he hasn't been banned.
 
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