busse vs custom

[wrxguyusa]

I haven't read everything carefully, but in reality there's a lot more to Bussekin than INFI. I own a couple blades from Swamp Rat, Scrapyard, and have a Busse on order.

Busse has built a community around his product and provided a level of service that a one-man custom shop just can't match. You get a product that feels like custom without all the time/expense of a custom. Immediate gratification, responsive customer service, and rapid communication is all part of the purchase. Not to mention a strong aftermarket with higher than new costs. He's hit the nail squarely to market to the forum/internet market.

Custom knives means dealing with a small shop. It's going to take time to figure out what you want, transfer that idea to a maker, and wait for the product to come. You get what you want, IF you knew what you wanted in the first place and chose the right person. If you don't like it, chances are you may lose money, sometimes a lot of money.

That's why I bought a few Bussekin over others. I own some from Blind Horse in O1 that I also love and I know that a number of cheap production knives could do what I need reliably for the rest of my life.

Now that I have a basis, I may explore more custom options, but I just wouldn't know what to ask for in ordering a custom.

 

[Rick Marchand]

... acrimony (look it up kids) and do not really answer any questions

-Page

I didn't have to look it up, Page.... do I win anything?


This might as well be a thread on religious views.


I have to admit though... I have the urge to make a knife that will chop bricks all day and document the carnage. Then I'll forge it down some and make a knife that is usefull for more than entertainment.

I used to have a Jeep TJ Silver Anniversary Edition with enough modes to turn heads. I thought it was the best vehicle around and for my mindset at the time, it was. Now, with kids and real-world responsibility, I drool at the sight of a minivan. I am however, approaching 40yrs... perhaps I will find my way to the Jeep dealership again, someday soon.

 

[gga357]

Thanks Salem Straub and Matthew Gregory control over HT for the ABS test makes sense. Agree with enough money (Large company or research grant) one can afford the time to create the procedure, purchase or build the equipment and provide the man hours for testing. Problem is most large companies probably would not share their information. I have downloaded some government and university research that has been referenced here or other knife/sword/blade sites, but it's not very comprehensive.

By the way Ankerson in "Knife Review & Testing" has a very interesting thread going.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=793481

Seems fairly objective. It is purely a thin edge slicing test. No breaking blocks or stabbing steel drums.

Greg

 

[AcridSaint]

I haven't read everything carefully, but in reality there's a lot more to Bussekin than INFI. I own a couple blades from Swamp Rat, Scrapyard, and have a Busse on order.

Busse has built a community around his product and provided a level of service that a one-man custom shop just can't match. You get a product that feels like custom without all the time/expense of a custom. Immediate gratification, responsive customer service, and rapid communication is all part of the purchase. Not to mention a strong aftermarket with higher than new costs. He's hit the nail squarely to market to the forum/internet market.

Custom knives means dealing with a small shop. It's going to take time to figure out what you want, transfer that idea to a maker, and wait for the product to come. You get what you want, IF you knew what you wanted in the first place and chose the right person. If you don't like it, chances are you may lose money, sometimes a lot of money.

That's why I bought a few Bussekin over others. I own some from Blind Horse in O1 that I also love and I know that a number of cheap production knives could do what I need reliably for the rest of my life.

Now that I have a basis, I may explore more custom options, but I just wouldn't know what to ask for in ordering a custom.

There are a lot of false assumptions in this post. One assumes that customs can't be had without a long wait, one assumes that customs can't be had at a similar or lower price point, one assumes that custom makers don't have standard models or a basic style that one can choose from, one assumes that their custom is likely to lose value, one assumes that the maker won't rectify the situation if the customer is unhappy and one assumes that custom makers just can't offer a certain level of customer service.

None of these things are necessarily true. It just depends on what you're ordering from whom.

 

[tryppyr]

There is one thing about this conversation that harkens back to a different thread about how to communicate with customers. This is another facet of the same issue.

The point was made that Busse has a very effective strategy at marketing for the forum/Internet crowd. There is every reason to believe that statement is correct, as the evidence definitely seems to support it. I would also add that it appears this strategy is targeted at the demographic that relies most heavily on forums/internet as a source of information (i.e. folks younger than me). I don't want to put too fine a point to it, but such people are more likely to be swayed by messages appearing in those venues than others (in my age bracket, for instance), who would view them with more of a jaundiced eye.

In the other thread I suggested that the trick for marketing was not giving a customer data, but giving them confidence instead. What we've heard from now three Busse owners is that they have confidence in their product, largely based on the warranty and the Internet buzz behind the warranty and the product.

There *IS* something to be learned here, if you are interested in becoming amore "commercial" knife maker selling knives to young folks.

 

[Core Knife Co.]

I don't really understand the point of this conversation. Who cares sums it up nicely for me. We're all going to have different preferences and intended uses behind the knives we purchase, so why not get what appeals to you and not worry about what anyone else thinks?

Personally, I would take a custom any day of the week over a Busse. Not that I don't have all the respect in the would for Busse and his product, because I do. I just really enjoy the dialog, the planning, the relationships formed while having my knife made.

 

[wrxguyusa]

There are a lot of false assumptions in this post. One assumes that customs can't be had without a long wait, one assumes that customs can't be had at a similar or lower price point, one assumes that custom makers don't have standard models or a basic style that one can choose from, one assumes that their custom is likely to lose value, one assumes that the maker won't rectify the situation if the customer is unhappy and one assumes that custom makers just can't offer a certain level of customer service.

None of these things are necessarily true. It just depends on what you're ordering from whom.

You made a lot of assumptions from my post. I stated factors that influenced me.

• Not really custom if you buy a pre-made knife from a maker. That's like buying from Busse or other low-production maker

• I didn't mention purchase price and know that customs can be better value

• Saying that you may lose money reselling a custom is true, nothing said about "likely"

• Busse aftermarket is notorious for maintaining/exceeding original value

• A custom maker may well go out of his way to make someone happy, but I wouldn't ask for a change if I made the mistake in ordering, nor can the maker afford to make endless mods because the buyer ordered the wrong knife

I respect the hell out of true custom makers. When the time comes for me to order one, I'll hold it with more regard than any piece of production Busse.

 

[gga357]

Busse demographics would be very interesting to see. From my reading and from pictures from major shows the big buyers are not very young. And obviously have incomes that allow them to attend shows and purchase several very expensive items. Busse has definitely created a strong exclusive market segment.

 

[Maqua]

The Burt Foster camp bolo in W-2 in my avatar pic is my favorite blade. My Busse SAR 6 and SAR 8's are nice, too, among many other Bussekin. Both are ridiculuosly sharp. SAR-6 was cheaper and wait time was 3 days. The Burt Foster is one of a kind and a superb performer but it took close to two years to acquire (well worth the wait). Buy what you like.

 

[AcridSaint]

Whoooo bullet points, this is my favorite part of forum discussions. Also - Sup dawg, I herd you like lists, so I put a list in your list so you can read while you read.

I've answered your bullets out of order to consolidate counterpoints vs. contradictions/errors:

• 
  If a maker has a standard line and you ask for specifics within that line, it is indeed custom.
  • As another option, one can have one of the "non-custom" versions from a custom maker. The point is that there are many options available.

• 
  Several custom makers also have "notorious" resale value.
  • It is possible to get in on "the ground floor" with many very good makers and get a very low priced knife that will sky rocket in value over time.

• 
  If a custom maker is willing to make things "right" by the customer, they are willing to make them right. Just because you make a decision not to take advantage of a maker's willingness to stand behind his/her work doesn't give your original claim any more validity.
  • Since very few customs come back, most makers can afford to fix things until they are right or just simply refund the money and sell the knife elsewhere. While they can't afford to do it infinitely, neither can Busse afford to accept returns or warranty claims infinitely, making that bit of your argument moot.
    

Now, here is where we discuss some nuances of the English language:

Firstly - I'd like to respond to the mention that your post was only written as the criteria apply to you. While that may indeed have been the case, since your never claimed this, nor had any indication of it through use of qualifiers ("I think", "in my opinion", "it is my belief", "in my experience" etc.) one could only make the assumption that yours were intended to be definitive statements.


Now, please compare this statement :

I didn't mention purchase price

With this one:

You get a product that feels like custom without all the time/expense of a custom.

(emphasis added)

Now, while the second does not mention a specific purchase price, it does indeed imply that a Busse is less expensive than a custom knife.


Next, I would like to call your attention to this statement:

Saying that you may lose money reselling a custom is true, nothing said about "likely"

And ask that you compare it to this one:

If you don't like it, chances are you may lose money, sometimes a lot of money.

(emphasis added)

The idiom "chances are" is a synonym for "it's likely", so, while the word "likely" was not technically used, standard conventions of English dictate that one can make the jump.


Lastly - I want to head off any confusion and point out that infinite is a synonym for endless.

You made a lot of assumptions from my post. I stated factors that influenced me.

• Not really custom if you buy a pre-made knife from a maker. That's like buying from Busse or other low-production maker

• I didn't mention purchase price and know that customs can be better value

• Saying that you may lose money reselling a custom is true, nothing said about "likely"

• Busse aftermarket is notorious for maintaining/exceeding original value

• A custom maker may well go out of his way to make someone happy, but I wouldn't ask for a change if I made the mistake in ordering, nor can the maker afford to make endless mods because the buyer ordered the wrong knife

I respect the hell out of true custom makers. When the time comes for me to order one, I'll hold it with more regard than any piece of production Busse.

 

[tryppyr]

Busse demographics would be very interesting to see. From my reading and from pictures from major shows the big buyers are not very young. And obviously have incomes that allow them to attend shows and purchase several very expensive items. Busse has definitely created a strong exclusive market segment.

For the sake of clarity, I wasn't really talking about Busse demographics, so much as I was the demographics of that partricular marketing approach. Social media is not a marketing method typically aimed at ault farts like me.

- Greg

 

[FerFAL]

FerFal, are you serious with that "my dad let me shot a few rounds once"? I hope not.

You must not be.

Of course I'm serious. My dad did let me shoot some rounds with his 22LR revolver once. I think I was 13. Nothing wrong with that, is there?

This thread has been an amazing trip right to the edge of the hype universe, all it needs is "Tiger blood"

Having done "Industrial Metallurgy" for two and a half years in an aerospace metals plant I am curious about the "industrial metallurgic equipment"

Not sure what he has in mind exactly. He’s an engineer that used to design missiles for our military (back when it was worth a damn) and knows a lot about metallurgy, well beyond my capabilities. He knows people in the metallurgic industry here and has to his disposal lots of industrial metallurgic machinery. He’s pretty well off and has the brains, time, money and contacts to try anything he wants so it should at least be interesting.
I’ll ask him precisely what he did once he’s done, steel used, exact temperatures he worked with (measured with IR thermometer) , for how long and what other relevant process he did.

Rest assured, if I made a knife tougher than Busses.
1)I’ll make a video comparing both, same geometry, mine vs. Busee’s INFI.
2)I wont be telling anyone how I did it either.

Personally I think Busse has done an extremely good job at making hype that is unbreakable.

No one said its unbreakable, just seems to be tougher (while still being very sharp and keeping a good edge) than others.
FerFAL

 

[Salem Straub]

I think it only matters to people who love Busses. That's why makers don't do it. If Busse was widely acknowledged in the knifemaking world as being the top chopper, maybe more guys would be trying to challenge that.

My remark about your remark about the gun reflected the fact that you seem to be pretty sure about handguns, what's the best, and why. I'd have expected you to be poppin' off rounds for stress relief every Saturday.

It seems like a further demonstration of my earlier remark to Superman, there.

Not trying to be an ass, this thread is like a train wreck- a horrible mess, but hard to look away.

 

[Rat Finkenstein]

I am not really impressed with their knives, but what they make is not what I'm into, I'm into extremely sharp knives not sharpened crowbars.

So long story short, you don't even know what they make.

Jerry wouldn't post to run you down, no matter what he thought of your knives, but here some of you are doing exactly that.

Class.

 

[Graham Fredeen]

I typically don't post on this sort of topic, but its been awhile since I made a post, and figure, why not.

I would just like to point out a few observations:

Firstly, this thread is in the Knifemaker's Shop Talk - BladeSmith Questions and Answers forum, which is supposed to be about "The art of knife making- advice on methods, supplies, and materials." Basically a place for knifemakers to come and discuss knifemaking methodology with each other, or for others to ask makers questions regarding methodology. I fail to see how this thread fits into this topic at all. The majority of participants offering "expertise" in this thread are not knifemakers and are not offering any sort of advice, or inquiring about knifemaking, whatsoever. If folks want to continue this debate, I don't think this is the appropriate forum and it should be moved elsewhere.

Secondly,this thread and the debates and discussions here are futile. What has been debated and compared are opinions and preceptions. No true conclusion can be made regarding this, since there are no hard facts, and the original question was so vague that opens the door for all sorts of other side discussions that may or may not relate to the original "topic". When opinions and preceptions come into play there will always be disagreement, and no way of proving who's right or who's wrong (that takes quantifiable facts).

Thirdly, this thread was originally posted almost a year ago, the debate was hashed out, back and forth, until folks got bored and it was allowed to die. There is no point in resurrecting a dead and futile thread and continue the exact type of discussions that were already done in the past.

Additionally, in this debate, there seems to be two separate sides, those who are big Busse fans/customers, who love his product and think its the best, and those who don't. Very few who are "contributing" to this discussion that actually have experience with enough knives (we are talking LOTS of knives here, from as many sources as possible) to really have a true, strong foundation for their opinions. Most folks are just working with a limited amount of experience with a few different knives from a couple sources. There are a lot of folks posting here who have stated that Busse INFI is the best, but they don't own any INFI knives, but will, because they are the best. Assuming something is better than something else without actually experiencing/observing/testing it yourself, just because other say it is, proves nothing and is an empty claim. AND one of the biggest issues I see here is the use of vague terms like "Best" and "better" which are meaningless without the proper context in place, as well as trying to compare things against each other when their purposes and intended functions don't match. For example, if I said "INFI is the best steel/HT out there" and then tried to prove that by prying open car doors with a Busse and a high performance chef's knife. Of course the Busse would be "better," but that term only applied to that situation. Put the Busse up against the chef's knife in a fine onion dicing or sushi slicing competition and it would loose horribly, making the chef's knife "better". These two types of knives were designed specifically to do two completely different things and thus excel at one task while failing at others. There is a reason there are so many different types of knives out there. People can't go around debating things if no one is willing to clarify their judging criteria and be willing to accept that you must compare things on an equal level, under the same intended use, with the same criteria.

And finally, I would like to point out that unless you can physically go around and test and quantifiably compare an INFI Busse to every single knife out there from every single custom maker, you can't make the claim that INFI is the "best," only that it is better than what ever it might have been tested against (and deemed better than), in that specific use/purpose. There may be other knives out there that are better, but have just not been tested or observed. This is a claim that would be very hard to verify.

I would like to state that I can not make any comments about Jerry's work, as I have no personal experience with it. I only have experience with my knives. I don't bash any other makers, and I don't think anyone should (going either way). From those who say that they own his knives and think they are great, sounds like he does good work, and I wouldn't doubt it. And at the same time there are MANY MANY other makers out there who also produce very good work and should not be slighted. There is room at the table for everyone, and just because someone likes one makers work more than another's doesnt' make them right and everyone else wrong, or them wrong and everyone else right.

Sorry for the length... guess I must be trying to make up for my recent lack of posting over here

 

[sunshadow]

So long story short, you don't even know what they make.

Jerry wouldn't post to run you down, no matter what he thought of your knives, but here some of you are doing exactly that.

Class.

On the contrary, I call the genre sharpened crowbars. I respect Busse for what they have done, the knives I make are small (3-6 inch blade typically) with a very thin included angle edge for aggressive cutting, not chopping. As I stated in my post, I'm not into their knives, I personally have no use for any of that genre, but I'm not a soldier in Afghanistan who has to depend on a knife to be a utility tool, crowbar, killing tool, hammer etc.What I was commenting on is the marketing-hype-fanaticism-hero worship etc. I was seeing. Busse has created a cult of blade worship. I was commenting on how this thread illustrates that.

-Page