busse vs custom

[FerFAL]

The problem I have with the OP's base question (and the necroposter's repeat) is simply that it starts with a foregone conclusion, and it's no surprise that it ends in the same place. What a surprise.

Can anyone make a better blueberry crisp than my wife? Of course not. No custom maker could do better because she uses infinite blueberries.

Actually that’s a good example. If you’re serious about it, your wife participates in a number of blueberry pie contests world wide and she wins most of them, then it would be hard to claim otherwise, wouldn’t it?
You could say for example that as of today you’re the best soccer player in the planet. Then if someone says “But hey, isn’t that Lionel Messi?”, the BS is over and things are what they are. When the first vale todo fights took place BS could finally be seen for what it was. Many claimed to be the best, but the Gracie brothers swept the floor with them all. (of course like in this case with people getting offended by the question itself, many that didn’t even dare fight would mumble that theirs was the world’s best fighting system, but of course they weren’t going to actually prove it because… you know… because…) Vale Tudo fighting changed hand to hand combat as we knew it and even USMC apply the lessons learned during those times. Today a pure BJJ fighter is lacking the tools needed for MMA fights, but it was thanks to those brave men that didn’t fear to put their money ( in this case, their body and physical well being) where their mouth was, hand to hand fighting evolved and took a huge leap forward.

Oh my God. What the hell happened here.

If it matters so much to the Busse fans, why don't any of you with the funds to own several Busses buy up some custom "hard use" knives and test them against each other? Hell, I'll make a knife for the test. But like a wise man said back on page three, us custom makers find it hard to make a living insuring knives against people's lack of common sense. I have a lifetime warranty on my knives against defects in materials or workmanship. I make forged hunters out of 52100 with thorough thermal cycling, but I KNOW they would break if used to chop a cinderblock. I can't make a hunting knife worth a damn as a hunting knife that would do such a thing. I don't think Busse can either.

Seriously, if someone wanted to pay me to specifically make a knife to go up against a Busse on the Busse's terms, I'd do it. I wouldn't be crushed if my knife "lost." I know the worth of what I make.

Send me a Busse to evaluate while making my blade. I don't own one (don't worry, I won't steal it) and want to see the edge geometry and do cutting/chopping/bending tests myself to see what it can take. If I break it, hell it's covered, right?

When my blade is done, I'll send it back with the Busse so you can test them against each other. My knife won't be fancy, horse stall mat handle etc., but if it breaks you get your money back. If the Busse "beats" it, send me the knife back for a full refund.

Those are terms on which I'd try to compete. If no one is interested, no sweat off my back. If anyone is, call me or PM me or something. We can work out reasonable testing criteria, I'd hate for someone's spendy Busse to break.

While many knife makers that probably use meteorite steel and quench their blades using the blood of conquered warriors under the full moon, you my friend have earned my respect and no doubt, the one of many others reading this thread. Being sure enough of your work that you wouldn’t mind comparing it against others says a lot. As I said before a friend will be doing an exact copy of my Busse Bushwacker, using 51200 steel and industrial metallurgic equipment to see how it compares. I’ll likely have him make two, one for destruction test and another for keeping since the price will be very reasonable. I’ll definitely keep you in mind next time I’m buying. Beautiful work by the way, just checked out your website.

Theirs a reason you don't see any infi in the cutting championships.. it cant hold its edge... even there own SR101 out cuts it, i have a few Busse and like them, they look good, i like the feel, but they are not at all comparable to a custom hunter knife, which is what i do, an average of 70 days afield, lets me know which is good for me, I buy infi because i like Busee, its that simple, but it most defiantly is not the best there is for what I do... I was able to get a lot better performance from my INFI blades, by thinning the edge out, but when i did that, the edge just crushed and rolled like the other steels, i can say the Busse i can push hard, but i can out cut the Busse all day, with another blade that wont "bend as far".. at any rate, Jerry states his blades are tough and they are.. however no matter how good the warranty is it still says UNINTENTIONAL damage.. big word there... or if that wasn't the case, id buy one.. and set a world record for cutting a car in half with knives... of course i don't know how much infi id break doing it, and Jerry wouldn't be too fond of replacing that many blades.... so ill just use that word UNINTENTIONAL and stick to that, i can tell ya when i spend time in the woods, i have a Busse that i have fun with, bash logs, split wood, etc. etc. and then i have a knife. that does everything else and quite well....the closest test i have able to ever perform was the INFI S5 vs the SR101 S5 both sharpened the same, actually 4 models, of each and the 101 repeatedly beat the INFI in cutting over and over and over.
so to answer that question.. for me.. yes there are better.. by far... but ill still buy Busse

Thanks Bowxpress for the serious reply.
I understand what you mean. No doubt there steel out there that can hold an edge longer, but at least in my experience they do so at the cost of being a bit more brittle too. Not breaking like a glass rod or anything, but if circumstances require to abuse the knife, I’d rather have to sharpen it a bit more often, yet have the extra toughness. Still, your point is very valid. Thanks a lot for your post.

FerFAL

 

[Matthew Gregory]

... a friend will be doing an exact copy of my Busse Bushwacker, using 51200 steel and industrial metallurgic equipment to see how it compares.

What will be the purpose of this comparison? 52100 is a bearing steel. Are you intending to also have a series of races made of INFI to test how they fare by comparison to identical versions of 52100 heat treated to the specification that industry developed the steel for?
How about a test using a modern shock resistant tool steel with identical geometry to whatever INFI blade you're planning on using for a baseline? There's lots to choose from, and would likely be a more useful means of reaching a conclusion. Almost seems like you're picking a bantam-weight to fight in the cruiserweight division...

 

[AcridSaint]

Who's that ugly dude in your avatar Matt?

 

[FerFAL]

What will be the purpose of this comparison? 52100 is a bearing steel. Are you intending to also have a series of races made of INFI to test how they fare by comparison to identical versions of 52100 heat treated to the specification that industry developed the steel for?
How about a test using a modern shock resistant tool steel with identical geometry to whatever INFI blade you're planning on using for a baseline? There's lots to choose from, and would likely be a more useful means of reaching a conclusion. Almost seems like you're picking a bantam-weight to fight in the cruiserweight division...

Well, it was my friends idea, no idea what heat treatment he has in mind for it. He just said he could come up with something as good or better than INFI and I said go for it, get me a couple knifes to test while you're at it.
Exaclty what steel did you have in mind? I'll give it a try as you suggest (correct heat treatment and same blade geometry) and see how it works.
FerFAL

 

[AcridSaint]

I didn't read the thread, but I believe that there are several steels out there that can outperform infi in some aspect or another. Maybe not every aspect, but that's pretty much the case with any steel. There is always a tradeoff.

I'd look at these two steels as possible candidates:
CPM 3V
CPM M4

 

[FerFAL]

Thanks AcridSaint, I'll see about having him make a similar knife with it and see how it works. Its going to take some time but I'll post when I have some results.

FerFAL

 

[Rick Marchand]

Exaclty what steel did you have in mind? I'll give it a try as you suggest (correct heat treatment and same blade geometry) and see how it works.
FerFAL

I can't speak for Matthew but I would use L6 to make a brick chopper. To be fair, you should enter a Busse into a camp knife challenge. Food prep, fuzz sticks, game prep, trap making and general carving... that is more of the kind of use a knife would see.

 

[Huntsman Knife Co. LLC.]

I think in terms of toughness Ive yet to see anything from any maker that will match INFI. (I haven't used any fehrmans yet but I hear they are amazing.) Now in terms of edge holding/ straight up cutting SR 101 outperforms INFI by a very noticeable amount. I would never buy a Busse that was not meant to be a chopper because for a small knife you are basically paying anywhere from 300-1000 for the performance of 154CM.

I only have one busse currently but would buy more if the price was right. Honestly though with price factored in I couldnt be happier than I am with Swamp Rat and Scrap Yard. In my experience they are THE best knives in terms of edge holding, toughness, warranty, and ergos. I know that what knife is best can only be determined on a personal basis and there is no one "best" brand of knife but busse kin comes pretty darn close The only knock is corrosion resistance which isn't a problem for me because I'm used to it.

I have really been wanting to try out some customs but they are just so hard to get a hold of and for the price I could just buy busse kin. I do want to test and see how some expertly treated CPM M4 compares to SR 101 and how 3V compares to INFI. But for right now Busse and Kin are the best for my needs by a long shot.

Personally though in most cases I dont think INFI's high cost is worth it for many models. I just got a Junglas over a BWM. Very similar blades, same warranty, one is less than half the cost and comes with a sheath....The choice was simple for me. INFI's maybe 20% better edge holding and probably 35% lateral strength advantage over 1095 just isnt worth the cost.

The only reason I have a KZ II is because the swamp or scrap yard doesnt have a Kukri.

 

[steeljhp]

I ran across this japanese steel a couple of years ago called DC-53 it was stated to be vastly superior to other tool steels . I have never seen a knife made out of this stuff ,which was supposed to have twice the toughness of d-2 IIRC .

 

[Lycosa]

Busse wins.

 

[Salem Straub]

It's all theoretical unless the testing is done thoroughly, steel vs. steel. I'm sure all of us (well, some of us) are well acquainted with all of the edge geometry, intended use, cutting ability vs. shock capability aspects of the subject. After all of this, this thread strikes me at this point as being an exercise in futility.

To me, the passion and attention to detail that a good custom maker puts into a knife will always win.

 

[Salem Straub]

I think in terms of toughness Ive yet to see anything from any maker that will match INFI....
I have really been wanting to try out some customs but they are just so hard to get a hold of and for the price I could just buy busse kin.

So, you have yet to see anything that will match INFI because you've not tried any customs?

Theoretical.

Not trying to pick on you, I just think that illustrates my point particularly well.

 

[cro91]

"Actually no, at least not always. Some custom knives just suck. Even some made by reputable makers. I think its mostly the case of collectable knives that dont get used much at all, so you never really know how good (or bad) they are."
FerFAL[/QUOTE]

Will you be so kind to tell me who is the knife maker that made you a "sucky" knife . Are You positive that he is not "specialized" in making "collectable knives only"?

"As I said, I own custom knives and do appreaicte forged, differential tempered blades and such. But then again none of this reffers to the questions both the OP and myslef asked."
FerFAL[/QUOTE]
I apologize,...but I had no intent answering any of your questions, but let me put it simple for you. There is a reason why "BUSSE" , has "BUSSE CUSTOM SHOP".

"Since you brought guns into this, If I want the best pistol in the world I just buy a Glock, I dont even bother asking for a custom made one. Weight, reliability, accuracy, magazine capacity, simplicity of repair, operators manual use, parts availabiliy. You take all this into consideration and no matter how much you may like other guns the answer is still the same."
FerFAL[/QUOTE]

What??? "asking for a custom made one"? Who do you ask? Mom?, ..Dad? Have you ever shot a hand gun??? What answer?

 

[AcridSaint]

If you're willing to sacrifice all of the other properties that make a knife a knife and just want something super tough, S7 is probably a contender. I'd not choose it over 3V, however, because 3V is much better blade steel and approaches S7 in toughness. Does anyone have impact and abrasion resistance data on infi or are we all just basing it on knife tests and marketing?

 

[FerFAL]

Will you be so kind to tell me who is the knife maker that made you a "sucky" knife . Are You positive that he is not "specialized" in making "collectable knives only"?

Doesn’t really matter who made them. You’re pretty naïve though if you think that all knife makers make good knives.

"Since you brought guns into this, If I want the best pistol in the world I just buy a Glock, I dont even bother asking for a custom made one. Weight, reliability, accuracy, magazine capacity, simplicity of repair, operators manual use, parts availabiliy. You take all this into consideration and no matter how much you may like other guns the answer is still the same."
FerFAL

What??? "asking for a custom made one"? Who do you ask? Mom?, ..Dad?

In Argentina if you want a custom made 1911 type racegun you go to Tagle. I’m sure there’s more than enough high end gunsmiths that make custom guns in USA.

Have you ever shot a hand gun??? What answer?

Yes, my dad let me shot a few rounds once.

If you're willing to sacrifice all of the other properties that make a knife a knife and just want something super tough, S7 is probably a contender. I'd not choose it over 3V, however, because 3V is much better blade steel and approaches S7 in toughness. Does anyone have impact and abrasion resistance data on infi or are we all just basing it on knife tests and marketing?

No, of course I’m not talking about sacrificing the properties that make a knife a knife. INIF doesn’t do that either. 3V it is then.

FerFAL

 

[bindlestitch]

The problem I have with the OP's base question (and the necroposter's repeat) is simply that it starts with a foregone conclusion, and it's no surprise that it ends in the same place. What a surprise.

Can anyone make a better blueberry crisp than my wife? Of course not. No custom maker could do better because she uses infinite blueberries.

It's just a ridiculous post. I'm not saying anything bad about anyone's knives. I'm sure Bussees are excellent. And so are many others. You love your Bussee... wonderful. Thanks for sharing. Why on earth pose that statement as a question you would never accept any answer to? You think INFI is the ultimate steel? Fabulous. Glad you're a happy man. Others are just as happy with other steels selected for specific tasks.

If you weren't really looking for an answer, you shouldn't pretend to ask a question.

Quoted for truth.:thumbup:
Iz

 

[gga357]

This thread reminds me of several questions I have had about steel with respect to knife making. Let me start by saying I am very left brained. I would like to see numbers or charts that describe the performance of knives made from any of the steels in question. I know that will not happen until Consumer Reports decides that knives in all their forms are as important as printers and water filters.

The other item that has puzzled me over the years is the ABS test. If success is to bend a knife to 90 degrees and not have it break, then what if it only takes 100 units of energy (just being generic here) to bend knife A, but knife B breaks after only deflecting say 30 degrees but requires 400 units of force. If my max "using force" is say 200 units then isn't knife B better? (all else being equal)

From mostly lurking around here (buying occasionally) I know Kevin Cashen's threads can be controversial, but he makes sense to my left brained mind.

A pistol can be tested by using a Ransom rest, trigger gage and chronograph there by taking out the human error in the system. Use a decent variety of ammo and you get results that can be easily judged. Then you can just pick it up run a few drills and 300-500 rounds through it an form a valuable opinion of it.

Seems that knives are not as easy to judge as firearms are. There seem to be far more variables. Just up late and decided to add my thoughts. I have many knives from Busse/kin, prodution, custom (pretty sure another thread determined handmade is a better description) and like them all for different reasons.

 

[Salem Straub]

You're right handmade is a better description.

There are ways to test knives, removing human error from the equation. It takes imagination. And to do it properly and thoroughly, some funds. Heavy industry tests knives and tools all the time, to determine what's best for an application. Makers tend to do thing like use a torque wrench when bending, to determine how much force is necessary for a certain amount of deflection. A lot of in-shop cut testing is dependent somewhat on subjective "I think it's dull now" observations. Building a jig for cutting, taking photomicroscopic images of edges in different states, those are better ways but take a lot of effort for us small guys. It's hard to price your knives to reflect this amount of work/research.

As far as the ABS test, I'm of the stiffer blade is better mindset. I like a blade that takes more force to deflect. That's why I full temper, then torch draw the spine instead of edge quench. Just my opinion.

FerFal, are you serious with that "my dad let me shot a few rounds once"? I hope not.

You must not be.

 

[Matthew Gregory]

The other item that has puzzled me over the years is the ABS test. If success is to bend a knife to 90 degrees and not have it break, then what if it only takes 100 units of energy (just being generic here) to bend knife A, but knife B breaks after only deflecting say 30 degrees but requires 400 units of force. If my max "using force" is say 200 units then isn't knife B better? (all else being equal)

The ABS test does nothing more than prove that you have enough control over the heat treatment to complete the test. It was never meant to prove that the method was superior!!!

Your line of thinking is perfectly correct - if the goal was to demonstrate that you can make a stronger knife. However, if the goal of the test is to prove that you can achieve a particular end result without failure (in this case, as soft, ductile spine with a hardened edge), this test is valid.

I agree, though... most end up thinking this is a goal to shoot for as a performance merit, and that's just silly.

 

[sunshadow]

As I said before a friend will be doing an exact copy of my Busse Bushwacker, using 51200 steel and industrial metallurgic equipment to see how it compares.

FerFAL

This thread has been an amazing trip right to the edge of the hype universe, all it needs is "Tiger blood"

Having done "Industrial Metallurgy" for two and a half years in an aerospace metals plant I am curious about the "industrial metallurgic equipment"

Personally I think Busse has done an extremely good job at making hype that is unbreakable. If you want to build customer loyalty put an extremely good warrantee on something that is normally not well waranteed. I am not really impressed with their knives, but what they make is not what I'm into, I'm into extremely sharp knives not sharpened crowbars. I have done that whole take the knife on my belt and cut a car door open thing (The knife I was wearing was a simple utility hunter I had made out of O-1 and it worked just fine cutting open the door of my Chrysler LeBaron when the locks were frozen so I could get to the lock mechanism to open the door in an emergency) On the other hand cutting steel is what tool steel is designed for.

I am not saying that the knife I made back in 1993 is necessarily better than a Busse (better is an entirely subjective term when you are comparing tools made for different purposes without objective tests) and I am not saying that O-1 is necessarily better than "Infi" steel, once again, subjective. I can't even test that knife anymore because someone bought it from me the next day based on what I told them when they asked me about the duct taped patch on my car door and showed them the knife. (See, I manufactured my own hype accidentally and used it to sell a knife!)

In 1985 I finished the knife I had started making when I was 14. I was heat treating it in the metal labs at and someone started giving me a hard time bout "why bother making a knife, everyone knows that the only good steel is German Solingen Steel" I had made my knife out of a Nicholson File. I told him put up or shut up, bet him $100 my knife could cut his, hardened mine, tempered it at 350f, put his knife in a vise and carved an inch off of his cutting edge. Does that mean my knife is the best on the planet? Hell no!
I staged a test I knew I could win. I cheated. I purposefully tempered my blade a bit hard, I sharpened it with a 30 degree (approximate) included angle edge. I retempered the blade later at 400 to be sure, and put a proper geometry edge on it so it would actually be a usable knife.

Hype is hype. Many of these guys with a rabid fan base have done a really good job with marketing. I have seen this thread and ones like it pop up every once in a while. They create a lot of acrimony (look it up kids) and do not really answer any questions

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