Buyer Beware - Ebay kits.

Been seeing these Kit blades on ebay for years now. It's true, if you go through the Jantz catalogue you will find most of their styles being sold by someone who claims to be a custom knifemaker....LOL

I bought a Bowie about 12 years ago that turned out to be a Kit blade(not from ebay) from a "knifemaker" in Florida. I noticed that these same Bowie styles are from someone in Florida, wish I remembered his name though?!

They are usually never better than 440C steel as well. There are some in D2 and in ATS 34 now that Ive seen but most are some lower grade 440 steel or Carbon.

Don't get it twised either, CNC knives are NOT Kit knives. Kit knives as previously mentioned above are basically FINISHED blades and often finished wood handles or wood blocks drilled and ready for shaping. EIther way it's a factory blade imo.

CNC knives are just cut by Computerized machines(CAD, etc) for exact dimensions, etc. All the finishing, the edges, the grinds, etc are done by hand by the maker. Basically a time saving feature for the Knifemaker in high demand.
 
averageguy said:
"I would really like to see this link as well? matter o fact something is just not right about this post of course that only my gut feeling??"

You think I'm lying? That's the first time I've been called a liar on the forums. I'm not quite sure how to react - but I am pissed.
I've been on Bladeforums and Knifeforums since 1998 - even though my profile here shows '99.
I'm going to try to watch my mouth but don't insinuate this again.
Click to expand...



Not even close and I will try my best to explain without starting a pissing match.

I do not feel it is right to see you use this as a platform to bash good makers that are open and honest that use cnc, water-jet, and or laser. I for one can appreciate all forms of knife making forging, stock removal or by hand without the aid of any machines why because I have done it.

Did you see the thread that RJ Martin started on the all cnc knife, hell that took some skill just to get to that point, with a lot of hand work and even more skill to bring it together into a very fine custom knife.

That's all my gut feeling was and still is, but hey that's just my opinion and I am entitle to it just as you are yours. So please do not misunderstand what I was getting at, I just really wanted to this the auction post to see and understand it better. Hope this makes sense to someone

Thanks
Spencer
 
Ok, so I understand why people could be upset that the guy puts his initials on the blade if he doesn't grind it himself, but I do believe that this would be one of the nicest "kit" knives that I have ever seen. His filework is great as well as the rest of the work that he did on the knife including the sheath. So here is my question, and I am just asking to get a better understanding of this. Is it that he claims that this knife is totally unique and handmade that people are having a problem with? Just playing the devil's advocate here because I think this makes a good discussion. I could see this as pushing the limit of misrepresentation, but as far as the total knife goes it is unique even if the blade itself may not be. Here's another thing to think about too; I do see some knifemakers knives that look extremely similar (practically identically) to other knifemakers knives but do not claim them as being inspired by another maker. The fact is there are so many blades out there now it is almost impossible to come up with a totally unique blade. I mean in a way isn't this guy just doing the same thing that other makers do when they have a certain blade design that they keep making over and over again. Instead of doing the rough grinding himself he's just having it predone, but the result is basically the same as a custom knife. And to make matters more confusing how do we know that he isn't just using the knife "kit" blade as a pattern and grinding his own blades. Some back to this would be that he claims the steel ATS 34 but the apache hunter in jantz is 440C. So he is either a really good liar or it must not be the apache "kit" blade. Just a few things to think about.
 
I have a good friend who builds and sells kit knives - he uses a chute knife pattern that he buys online and he sells his knives regularly in the $300 range. He is constantly getting orders for these knives from people who see his finished product and like it. He is honest in what he is creating, and people value his workmanship. He is learning to hollow grind and working on getting a forge set up, so he is starting his career as a knife maker building kits. Like Coop said earlier, the sin is not making a kit knife, but MISREPRESENTING it as a true custom knife.

You know it's interesting - I posted in RJ Martin's thread the other day, and I'll say essentially the same thing here. A maker who uses CNC machining actually must posess TWO distinct and different skillsets. He must be able to handfinish and grind parts and do all the computer modeling, program his machines, create toolpaths, understand tolerancing and feed rates, etc. etc. etc. The simplified nature of my explanation proves that I dont' posess that skill set myself. I do, however, respect the genuine skill it takes to do it.

As always, we all will have our own opinions, but letsnot piss on another man's creation because we don't agree with his means of creating it. Good knifemakers are all aiming for perfection - its just that they each have their own way of acheiving it.
 
Thanks, Keith for the links. You are almost as good as the Gigster in detective work.... ;)

The above post by raythebigfoot has a LOT of great points.

On both of these sellers, they apparently deal primarily on eBay. Both have impeccably impressive feedback regarding buyers of their knives. Pages of accolades....

I think that they both handfinished these knives to an incredible degree, and the knives are unique in materials and well-made. A darn good value overall, with one glaring exception: You won't convince me that these are 100% handmade. I am using my 'gut' and averageguy's photos to help me decide, and they are damning indeed.

Too bad, too. Both have very clear writeups and descriptions. BOTH declare them to be handmade. Of course handfinished or handmade--what's the difference to an eBayer.... :jerkit:

Well, just be wary of eBay, but thankful for Bladeforums.

Thanks averageguy.

Coop

PS, AG: Listen and trust SAR's response. I understand exactly where he is/was coming from. Let's stay openminded and receptive. :thumbup:
 
I would bet that they could both add a line in such as:

"My blades are pre-cut and ground. I test them regularly. That said, I finish polish and fitment and final sharpening by hand. This process ensures that I can provide you with the handmade quality at a value-packed price."

But no.... Why risk the perceived drop off of sales that dissolving the mystique of handmade will assuredly bring. Hey, they're selling like hotcakes.

Besides, what about all the past customers? Better to keep-on keepin'-on... :mad:

Coop
 
This topic has been discussed a great deal over the past. As time has moved along there appears to be more and more makers that are getting work outsourced to one degee or another. most of those makers appear to be very upfront about how their knives are made. Once again, it is my belief that disclosure is what is important. It really doesn't matter how a knife is made, as long as potential customers are informed. At that point it becomes their decision as to whether they are okay with whar went into the making of the knife. It is when makers try to hide the fact that they use CNC or outsourced parts that there is reason for concern.

Over the years I have seen some great knives that started out as kits. Dennis Greenbaum's knives were true works of art long before he started doing everything by hand, when he was doing his magic to knife kits. The knives that Coop makes from kits are also exceptional. Both of these makers believe in full disclosure, and that is what is important. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people that are not honest about how their knives are made. That's a shame, and it also an insult to all the honest makers out there. Potential customers have to be very careful when thinking about purchasing a "custom" knife from places like ebay. However, it is the potential customers' responsability to make sure they are getting what the description says they are getting.
 
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