Buying & Selling custom knives on the Internet

ptgdvc

ptgdvc

Joined
Feb 27, 2003
Messages
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What is fair to both the buyer and seller?

I have been irritating a few people on BladeForums lately, with some comments about what I think constitutes fair or unfair business practices between buyers and sellers of custom knives on the Internet. Let me be very clear, what happens behind firewalls between consenting adult buyers and sellers is their business. Caveat emptor et vendor! BUT I have both bought and sold a fair number of custom knives on the Internet, in order to build my collection. FWIW, rightly or wrongly, I believe that I have a pretty good handle on the issue from BOTH perspectives.

This is MY opinion, continue reading at your own peril! ;)

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The buyer is the person who actually makes the deal happen with his desire and cash. (Salesmen will disagree)

As the buyer, I consider it my responsibility to know what it is that I am buying, and if the knife meets my criteria (type, size, style, maker, etc.). If I have questions about the knife, I should politely ask them and consider the seller's or maker's answers BEFORE the transaction takes place, NOT after the fact. It is my job to check out the seller's reputation and decide if he is trustworthy. If I don't know the sellers terms and conditions, or am unsure, I SHOULD ASK HIM, so that we are both on the same page. (Hey, you may actually enjoy getting slammed with restocking fees, expenses, and none of your cash back, but that is your choice) :rolleyes: Insurance on the outbound shipment? Do I want it? Is it included? Am I willing to pay for it?

I am buying a unique hand made product. It is IMPOSSIBLE to fully determine the fit, finish, and condition of a knife from images on the Internet. Even ABS Mastersmiths can and do occasionally make mistakes. There maybe a problem with the knife, that the seller or maker, in complete good faith, did not see. It is rare, but it can happen. I must have the right to inspect the knife for a reasonable period, and to return it (at MY expense including insurance) for cash refund or charge back to my credit card. If the buyer has used PayPal, the seller only has an obligation to return the net dollar amount that he actually received from PayPal. One further comment about about PayPal refunds: if the seller uses the "refund" button on PayPal instead of sending the buyer the refund in a new transaction, the seller only gives back the net amount received, but the buyer gets back the full amount paid. When the refund function is used, PayPal actually returns the PayPal fees back to the buyer, so nobody loses anything.

That of course brings up the two magic questions for BOTH buyers and sellers,

"What exactly is a deal killing probem?"

There is ONLY ONE deal killing problem, that BOTH the buyer and seller should both embrace! THE BUYER IS NOT HAPPY!
This completely eliminates nit-picking and he said, she said situations. It enhances the seller's reputation and also may earn the seller a future buyer.

"What exactly is a reasonable period of time?"

IF I am the seller, within three business days after the knife is delivered is a reasonable inspection period. Twenty minutes should be enough, but that is not realistic. After three business days it is YOUR knife.

IF I am the buyer, I should inform the seller as soon as I have decided that I am EITHER HAPPY or UNHAPPY. After three business days it is MY knife.

As the seller, I have an obligation to fairly represent the knife and its condition, with pictures and words, and answer all the buyer's questions to the best of my ability. It my responsbility to properly pack and ship the knife in timely fashion. And to confirm the date of its delivery with proof of signature. I request US Postal money orders for payment, because they maybe cashed at the same time that the knife goes into the US Mail. There are no bounced checks and no question about the availability of the funds. It also provides some additional protection to the buyer and the seller. As a matter of courtesy, I will let the buyer know when his money order arrives, and when I put the knife into the Mail.

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I reserve the right to revise and extend my remarks. ;)
 
Ladies and Gentlemen;

We have the first "Plank" of the Senator's "Platform".

WWG,

Staunch supporter of Senator Gill. As well I reserve the right to revise and extend my remarks.

Or in the words of the former Governor Hedley Lamar "Gentlemen we have to protect our phony balony jobs"!
 
Your comments have been enlightening, not irritating. I agree with your "policy statement" and think it is right on. Internet buying is changing the face of the knife world and shows. In doing business on the internet, both buyer and seller need to have reasonable expectations. A deal breaker is simply a dissatisfied customer, whether it doesn't fit his/her hand or match their shoes. For whatever reason the buyer doesn't like the knife, that's all the reason needed.

I've learned a lot about collectors from these threads. Keep it up.

Gene
 
I have often felt that insurance should be paid by the shipper unless the parties agree otherwise. If the knife does not arrive, then it is the shipper's responsibility to make it right. This would include the buyer if returning the knife.

Everything you say makes good sense.
 
Very reasonable..............

Anyone who finds exception to these standards should be flogged!!!! :D
 
My philosophy on this subject is quite simple whether it be a knife that I am selling from my collection or a knife that I make.
I'm not happy until you are happy.

Bobby Branton
 
I think that very fairly sums up the responsibilities of both the buyer and seller. Well done.
 
Spot on. Good post. Now if only this could be pounded into all members heads...
 
I know I am a little guy here and I am not a buyer as a general rule, just a maker who does all he can to have the highest integrity and please my buyers. This thread is good and I agree with the fact that the goal is to make the customer happy.

Now for my thought/question for consideration. Lets say a customer insists on certain features and design ideas that are unique to their tastes and desires, hence a custom knife, but are not easily marketable to other knife buyers and you execute those features and design ideas, then said customer recieves custom knife and does not like it....where does the maker stand in your eyes? Does he eat all his time, money and effort and accept the return with a refund and toss it in the corner of the shop or does he point out the uniqueness of the knife and politely refuse a refund? To me, this is one of the rare cases where the customer may not be right. Your thoughts?
 
S&S,

You really need to settle those issues at the time you accept the order, directly with the customer. I also think that is also completely reasonable to require a 50% NON refundable deposit to cover your time and materials. In case the unusual/weird customer design requests, don't work out.

P
 
Thanks p...I have not had this issue as of yet...come close once, but had myself covered. I mostly put this out there for buyers to think about when they approach a maker in this situation. I don't require non-refundable deposits or deposits at all to avoid me developing any bad habits of pushing things on the back burner, however I think it sound advice to do it in one of the discussed instances, I will consider it in the future.
Thanks!
 
Stag & Steel said:
I mostly put this out there for buyers to think about when they approach a maker in this situation. I don't require non-refundable deposits or deposits at all to avoid me developing any bad habits of pushing things on the back burner, however I think it sound advice to do it in one of the discussed instances, I will consider it in the future.
Thanks!
Click to expand...

Here is what I would expect as a buyer. If I order a knife that will be hard for the maker to sell to anyone else, I expect to pay a 50%, or so, non-refundable deposit. If it is a knife that would be next to impossible to sell to anyone else, I would expect to pay a 100% nonrefundable deposit.

Makers that have a long backlog are not going to be afraid to ask for deposits like that. New makers that are afraid to turn off a potential customer are sometimes very reluctant to ask for money up front. On a regular, popular design, not asking for a deposit is the right way to go, but when the knife will have a limited to nonexistent appeal to anyone other than the person that ordered it, a healthy deposit is in order.
 
Makes sense to me. A week does not bother me as far as letting the buyer make sure that they are happy. I have not passed very many on, as far as Customs. From an economic standpoint I should, but never seem to get around to it. :D

The four or five times I have sold a custom, it was important for the buyer to be happy before the deal was "done". If I ever meet them at a show, I want us both to be smiling about the deal. As a buyer, it is important to me to know as much as I can about a knife I am buying and the person who made or is selling it. I want to be pretty comfortable with the deal before I take delivery of the knife.

Deposits.
I like fancy handles, don't like to be in a maker's pocket, try not to take a maker out of his style (too much ;) ). so I do not mind helping out with material cost up front. I always leave wiggle room for the maker to do their thing without having a cloud of my design hanging over their head. Depending upon how comfortable I am with floating ideas back and forth, sometimes it is a lot of wiggle room. I have been pretty fortunate so far in the results in that I still like and enjoy owning many of my earlier purchases.

If I wanted a knife that was strictly my design, I would expect to have paid for most of it along the way, but would leave enough on the table so that finishing it and mailing it out provided some motivation depending upon the maker. It just depends. I have quite a few knives that were sent with a note of the nature "if you like it send me a check if not send the knife back".

I usually am not willing to make a deposit on standard designs from a maker.
 
I know there are at least a few talented and experienced makers out there who, as a matter of policy, won't make a knife based on the buyer's ideas or design unless they are sure they could, if necessary, sell it with confidence and pride to any number of other buyers. Seems like a very sound policy.
 
Well said all. This is another area where consumers sometimes have unrealistic expectations. So many are accustomed to returning used items for a full refund "within 30 days" to volume retailers. This is a competitive marketing ploy that has become almost a standard in the past 20 or so years. Often, there is no real valid reason beyond buyer's remorse. I would feel guilty for doing it to a maker or specialty dealer. There is a wide gulf between specialties and volume retailing that many ignore then become bitter if anyone hesitates at a full refund. Perhaps it's a companion to the no-fault consumer culture we all read about.
Also, I wince when someone abuses a product then returns it for free warranty- it only adds to overhead that is passed on to me.
 
Excellent original post that's applicable to other areas of interest besides knives. - - thank you
 
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