Camp knife or hatchet?

Well, I have used hachets, axes, and kukris. I find that the kukri is by far and away the best tool to carry with you. Someone metioned the "physics of an axe" well the problem with the an axe verses a kukri is that the shape of the hachet does not maximize the cutting potential. The easiest way to cut something is on a skew angle. So only a small portion of the blade touches the object being cut at one time. (less reistance) The angle of the kukri blade leads into a skew angle cut by nature of the blade shape. The hachet with it's curved or straight edge places all of the force in a straight line, thus requiring much force to make the same cut. I have broken etools (I keep replacing them). I have busted hachet handles. But I have not yet broken a kukri. That is my two cents.

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"Clear a path for the Kukhri or it will clear one for itself"
 
Hoodoo,

Since I no longer have the Estwing, I can't measure it but your description does sound accurate -- i.e., ~12" OAL & fairly light. I have used longer & heavier hatchets in the past but was just introduced to "real" khukuris last year so I never did a head-to-head comparison with a larger hatchet. Nevertheless, a few characteristics of the different tools leads me to believe that I would still favor a khukuri as the superior all-around tool.

I mentioned limbing in my comparison & it is something that I do quite a bit of every Spring as part of my trail clearing/wood gathering for camp. I had used a hatchet, longer & heavier than the Estwing, for several years before switching to a 12" machete. Now the machete is certainly not a better all-around wood tool than a hatchet, but I preferred it for limbing because of its better maneuverability & the fact that I found it less tiring to use for prolonged periods than a hatchet. BTW, I switched from the machete to the LTC prior to getting my first "real" khukuri.

As to kindling, I think there are a few factors that make me favor a khukuri. You mentioned a larger cutting area and I agree that is one reason, although not just for the confidence factor you cited. Although the overall cutting edge is longer, a khukuri's "sweet spot" is roughly the same size as the edge on a hatchet. The length of the khukuri's blade, though, allows me to hit its spine with another piece of wood to complete the split on those occasions when a single stroke fails to go all the way through.

My impression is that the weight distribution of the khukuri makes it faster to swing, more accurate & easier to control. I am not a physicist so I can't tell you scientifically how that increased speed combines with the weight of the piece to create "X" amount of force at impact. All I know is that it works for me.
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Kindling production aside, there are other tasks around camp that I've found suitable for the khukuri. Our camp has fairly narrow dirt roads. Each year, tree limbs need to be pruned back to prevent them from raking the sides of our truck. Now, I could remove entire offending limbs by using a hatchet or I could tote along a pair of loping shears for manicure work but the khuk gives me the flexibility to remove as much, or as little, as necessary.

Last Fall, I had a need to cut a rectangular section of clay to accept cinder blocks for under the tongue of a trailer. I had a mattock & spade at my disposal but, since the trailer was on a hillside, I wanted to remove a section of clay that would precisely fit the cinder blocks. Khukuri to the rescue -- it cut cleanly through the clay & roots, giving me exactly the hole I wanted.

I guess the point that I am trying to make is that a quality khukuri can perform a wider range of outdoor tasks -- and do them better -- than any hatchet I have ever handled.

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Cheers,

--+Brian+--

He who finishes with the most toys wins.
 
Cobalt,

I don't doubt your experience. Those home depot axes are not high end tools. I'm surprised at the price you paid. It makes me wonder what model you purchased. Usually a full size axe at home depot doesn't go for more than $20. Is this some high end model I'm unaware of or do you live in an area where the prices are just normally high?

Do you also recall the length of the hatchet? I think they sell a boy's axe also, which is quite a bit longer than a small hatchet.

And what is the mass of the 15" Ang Khola?

Thanks,



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Hoodoo

The low, hoarse purr of the whirling stone—the light-press’d blade,
Diffusing, dropping, sideways-darting, in tiny showers of gold,
Sparkles from the wheel.

Walt Whitman
 
An Estwing hatchet vs a 15in Ang Khola ? It would have been better to have compared the Estwing to one of the 8in blade khukuris as the Ang Khola is heavier and I think a bit longer. Another comparison would be a 20in Ang Khola with a 5lb ax, although now the ax will usually have a longer handle. Aren't those Tuatahi (speling ?) axes used the logging competitions around 5lbs or so ?
 
Originally posted by bcaffrey:
I wrote up a comparison of Estwing hatchet vs. CS LTC & HI "villager" khukuri last year. Folks may find the details of interest but I'll save you some suspense -- my vote goes for a quality khukuri as a superior all-around camp tool.

Here is an excerpt from Brian's test:
"The Estwing made the shallowest cuts but was the best of the three at throwing chips. I didn't time the cutting exercises or count the number of strokes needed to cut through the wood but my feeling is that the hatchet
required fewer strokes and took the least amount of time to complete a cut. Effort, however, is another matter. The hatchet was much more tiring on my hand and wrist than the villager. The overall chopping performance of villager and hatchet was very close. Although the hatchet was somewhat faster, the khukuri would be my choice of such one-hand tools for prolonged cutting."

The way I read this, the hatchet doesn't come out so poorly. What I'm still curious about, though, is which Estwing hatchet? If this is one of the smaller, leather handled ones, then the results are surprising. I would have expected the khukuri to level the small hatchet. Perhaps the bigger Ang Khola would? Or were you testing one of the longer, rubber handled Estwing hatchets?




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Hoodoo

The low, hoarse purr of the whirling stone—the light-press’d blade,
Diffusing, dropping, sideways-darting, in tiny showers of gold,
Sparkles from the wheel.

Walt Whitman
 
Hoodoo,
My 15" HI Ang Khola has a Chiruwa style handle (A.K.A. pana butta) with a full width exposed tang. It is a bit beefier overall than a typical AK, even by HI standards. Anyway, here are its specs:
[*] OAL - 15 1/2"
[*] Blade length (tip to center of bolster) - 10"
[*] Blade thickness - 1/2"
[*] Blade width - 2 3/16"
[*] Weight - c. 2 lbs.

Johno,
The direct comparison for which I provided the link was between the Estwing hatchet & a small village-made khukuri, not an AK. I no longer own the villager but, IIRC, OAL was barely 14" or so which would have given it about an 8-9" blade.



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Cheers,

--+Brian+--

He who finishes with the most toys wins.
 
Hoodoo,
It was a leather handled Estwing that I guess was roughly 12-13" long. BTW, I just looked up the thread that described the villager. I was right on OAL & it is described as being approximately 1 lb. in weight. This also coincides with my memory of it being a bit lighter than the hatchet.

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Cheers,

--+Brian+--

He who finishes with the most toys wins.

[This message has been edited by bcaffrey (edited 03-20-2000).]
 
First, I think that for a true comparison to be valid, both have to be dimensionally the same. I can't see comparing a 12 inch hatchet to a 16-18 inch khukuri or the reverse. Also, I don't think there is any doubt that an axe can beat a standard khukuri. Maybe the hatchet that I used was not of the quality that some are purchasing, however, the difference in performance was much greater than the difference in possible quality. Even the cheaper and lighter Indian junker khukuri chopped better, although not by much. That khukuri blunted so quickly that at a point it was no more effective than the hatchet. The vibrations in that khukuri were also annoying and painfull.

Now a question for the "Hatchet People"(hehe); Are there any hatchets that have one piece design available. I tend not to like the wood handles because I break them all the time. I will purchase a Hatchet, just to compare, but want a quality one, that I can enjoy owning, not one, who's wood handle will break on me, the first time I miss my mark, like the last one did. Even that chreapo khukuri outlasted the hatchet and in a survival situation, stuff that breaks is not needed. If anyone has any phone numbers of good hatchet suppliers, post them. I got into that sandvik supplier site but could not find a phone number.

 
Personally I find the comparison issue to be a fairly moot point, as it is the user not the tool that will make a difference in usability of one tool or the other. If one is more comfortable with a kukri then they are likely to find better results with it. The same is to be said for "the hachete people".

Never having spent much time using a kukri, the few times I have produced mixed results. Not that I doubt the results of others, just my expeience did not match up. With other types of long knives I have gotten results that were comperable to what I can get with a light belt ax, an ax is a different mattr all together and is not a fair comparision.

The poll on the belt ax usually does do a better job of substituting for a hammer than the back of any blade I have used however.

Instead of arguing for or against either, I would simply state that either with practice can serve similar functions.

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Lee

LIfe is too important to be taken seriously. Oscar Wilde
 
From what I've gathered so far Cobalt had tested a hatchet against his 15in Ang Khola, but it's still not clear what type it was. People seem to be guessing that it was an Estwing as most axes and hatchets at home improvement stores are less than $30. Cobalt said that it was longer than his Ang Khola. Bcaffrey noted that the Vilager that he used was about a 14 inch model, and the HI threads on the subject at that time indicate that they weighed a bit over a pound. He noted that the Estwing, maybe a 12 inch model, seemed to chop wood better, but it wasn't as versatile as the Villager or as comfortable to use. He seemed to confirm what I had said about hatchets vs khukuris, which was that khukuris are excellent all around edged tools but they give up some performance to more specialized tools, of similar size and weight. So far no one seems to be questioning full sized ax vs khukuri, which is a comparison of performance given similar weight, and most also seem to agree that a 3/4 ax also outpeforms a khukuri of similar weight in chopping. Another attribute in favor of single bit axes and hatchets is that they make nice hammers/sledges. From what I understand most full sized single bit axes used by loggers are used to drive wedges.

 
I don't think it was an estwing, unless they make wood handled ones. I would have liked to get one of their one piece jobs, as they are the only ones worth buying since they won't break, easily. But those appear to be more expensive.

Johno, Hoodoo, have you tested both? what were the results? size, specs, etc.? I would like to know what your experiences are with both?
 
For the most part people are giving a judgement on things that they have not tried. I have been using tools of all sorts since I was able to walk. I grew up on a farm.
I think that the most effective brush clearing tool is a chainsaw on the seat of a D-7 Cat! If you are only going to pack in one tool on your hikes take a kukri. Are you really going to need a 3/4 axe? Are you going to need a hachet? Most likely not. But If you are going on a hike let us refernce one of the most effective fighting forces of the late 19th and 20th centuries. What would they take with them? The force that I am talking about is the gurkhas, and thier knife ...(drumroll please...) a kukri. Everything has a place. Don't discount something until you'vee tried a good one. Like I have said before, I own an e tool(military surplus), I own a hachet (eastwing leather handle) I own several axes, single bit double bit, ranging from 3 to 7 lbs. I have log splitters and wedges, and above all I own a dozen or so kukris. If I was ONLY splitting wood I would use an axe and a maul. If I was only pounding spikes I would use a hammer(Deathstick brand). If I was only carving logs I would use my 80$ swiss hachet. If I am going on a walk in the woods or an overnighter I will take a kukri.
 
So I guess in answer to the original question, of what to take along. The assumption is that you will only take one item along not several, otherwise this question is pointless. Therefor, the following:

Best Choice: Khukuri for all around chopping, cutting, self defense.

Not far behind: Large straight edge blade of some kind, ie. Bowie or large Tanto, whatever you like. Some people may choose the straight edge over the khukuri for other reasons.

third: Large machette or a hatchet.

IMHO
 
Originally posted by Cobalt:
Now a question for the "Hatchet People"(hehe); Are there any hatchets that have one piece design available. I tend not to like the wood handles because I break them all the time. I will purchase a Hatchet, just to compare, but want a quality one, that I can enjoy owning, not one, who's wood handle will break on me, the first time I miss my mark, like the last one did. Even that chreapo khukuri outlasted the hatchet and in a survival situation, stuff that breaks is not needed. If anyone has any phone numbers of good hatchet suppliers, post them. I got into that sandvik supplier site but could not find a phone number.

I guess I must be a "hatchet person" (sigh...) so I'll reply. Estwing makes a steel hatchet and medium hatchet/axe that has a rubber handle. Don't know how well the handle holds up, though. I know I've used Estwing hammers with the same grips and they seem indestructable. If you really want to know how it holds up, ask a framing carpenter. The Estwing framing hammer is pretty standard equipment for hardworking carpenters (I carried one for a couple of years).

There are some nice custom hatchets out there. All steel with micarta grips. Pretty pricey stuff though. And usually too short to be much use for heavy chopping although many of them are designed primarily for hunting and can be used to quarter an elk, skin, and debone it. I believe Greco has one like that but there are others. You just have to hunt for them. A lot of the online dealers now have axe/hatchet sections.

Here's a fancy one with a wooden handle: http://www.roselli.fi/eng/products/RP.html

Here's one: http://www.agrknives.com/frizzell/ar-tf7.html

Another: http://www.knifecenter.com/knifecenter/estwing/ulu.html

Another: http://www.knifecenter.com/knifecenter/estwing/beltaxe.html

Here's some: http://www.knifeoutlet.com/axes.htm

Earlier I posted a link for a nice 18" axe at Foxridge Outfitters.
http://www.foxridgeoutfitters.com/cutlery/snaxes.html

These are pretty functional axes, the classic Hudson bay axe design and a hickory handle. I have the 24" and love it. The 18" might be a good one to compare to a khukuri. It has a 1 3/4 # head in a compact size. Should be able to handle that ok with one hand. I've seen better finishes on axe heads but Snow & Nealley still makes a pretty good axe for the money.

A good axe used correctly should last an awfully long time. I have a plumb axe that is 25 years old and still going strong. And when the handle goes, you can easily put another one on.

A thing I like about hatchets is that I can spend $30 or so a get a decent chopper and throw it in the back of my truck and forget about it. Buy 4 or 5 and that's still less than a 15-18" Ang Khola. So they are pretty practical tools pricewise. Not nearly as nifty looking though. I have to admit that the HI khukuris are awesome looking tools. Would love to have one and probably will someday. Maybe right after I get my RTAK.
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The number for A.M. Leonard is 1-800-543-8955. Spiffy little Sandvik hatchets. Well-made with a birch handle. A little thinner grind than the average hardware hatchet. I haven't really given mine a workout though. I hope they hold up 'cause I bought two.
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Hoodoo

The low, hoarse purr of the whirling stone—the light-press’d blade,
Diffusing, dropping, sideways-darting, in tiny showers of gold,
Sparkles from the wheel.

Walt Whitman
 
Hoodoo, thanks for the info. For the money the estwing all metal jobs appear to be the best. Although that micarta slabbed one is really nice and with 5160 would be very comparable to the khukuri's. However, when you start getting close to the khukuri prices, I don't think they are worth it.

At under $40 some of those hatchets appear to be good deals. I also agree with you about the price point. Hatchets are cheap enough that you can have several laying around with no worries. Khuk's are more expensive and are apt to be well taken care of and not thrown around unless needed.
 
Matt's post got me thinking a little about "traditions." More like the northwoods traditions. Here's a quote from an old timey northwoodsman, Calvin Rutstrum (who's taken many hikes in the woods-and I doubt he ever encountered stiff enough resistance he had to fight his way through)
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He wasn't what you would call a "tactical" woodsman.
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"The blunt, woodshed variety of ax has no place in the wilderness. Your ax should be of high-quality, tough steel; it should have a straight-grained hickory handle, and the blade should line up with the center of the handle. The blade must be thin enough for easy chopping. It should be kept very sharp, and properly sheathed when not in use.

The ax commonly used on canoe trips is the three-quarter size, often referred to as a "boy's ax" or poleax. It is the cause of many accidents in the woods, even among experienced woodsmen. Owing to the shorter length of the handle, the ax may not swing clear of the body after a miss, and seriously injury to an ankle or foot may result. A missed stroke with a full-handled ax will either swing clear of the body or end in the chopping block.

Organized camps should not permit the use of a three-quarter ax. The hazard is too great. However, it is a very handy instrument inthe hands of an experienced axman. But it is not a tool for a beginner. A full sized ax that weighs three or three and one-half pounds is best."

He then goes on to discuss the proper way to use an axe, which is much more detailed than some might imagine. He also discusses knives and based on the way people used to travel through the wilderness, three types of knives are required: 1) a beltknife: "The thick, chisel-edged belt knives which are generally sold, are of little value in the wilderness. Get your knife too thin rather than too thick." And: "A knife that will hack the bones of a heavy carcass or, even worse, cut nails without destroying the edge, as claimed by some knife makers, must be made with a thick blade, have a blunt chisel-like bevel, and be exceptionally hard-tempered. The finest steel in the world would not withstand cutting bone or metal if it were not so constructed. Unfortunately, a knife made in this way is not suited for general wilderness use. Bone should be cut with a small saw or an ax, never with a knife. Ax-blade bevels are abrupt enough to withstand a limited amount of bone cutting."

2) a crooked knife: "This knife is excellent for making a new paddle, replacing the broken parts of a canvas canoe, making snowshoe frames, and other wood craft. When buying it, stat whether you want it left- or right-handed, because it is designed for either hand. This knife is in common use in the North by the Indians. Where such knives are not available, the Indians make them out of flat files by annealing, shaping, and then retempering them. I came upon an Indian carving out a paddle with such a knife and realized more than ever its wide adaptability when I saw him creating maserful curves and formations in the white spruce.

3) a penknife: "A penknife should go in the first aid kit. It will serve as a scalpel and on occasion is handy for other very small work"



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Hoodoo

The low, hoarse purr of the whirling stone—the light-press’d blade,
Diffusing, dropping, sideways-darting, in tiny showers of gold,
Sparkles from the wheel.

Walt Whitman
 
If I'm hiking I take a smaller folding saw and almost always leave the big, heavy edged tools at home. If I'm in berry vine country and I might need to go into a thicket for a good reason I'll also take along a shorter machete. If I'm car/mule camping and making a fire it seems that I usually end up splitting wood, sometimes cutting it to length, and I prefer to have a larger saw and a 3/4 ax. Currently in each car I carry a fiberglass handled hatchet, 15in overall, feel like they're between 1 1/2 and 2lbs, which I use as beaters as they were only $6.
 
I've used the Estwing small belt axe for many years now. It's only 13inches long and comes with a leather belt sheath. It has leather handles and a nice sharp cutting head that works well for chopping small branches, splitting kindling and the other end can be used for hammering and pounding.I also carry a large folding knife.
 
I have the Estwing (full metal handle and leather washers) and Gransfors Bruks Inc hunter's hatchet.

The Estwing is rugged and has not broken with heavy use. Edge retention is rather poor.

The Gransfors Bruk hatchet has a wooden handle so I suspect it is not as rugged. Edge retention is excellent. Erognomics are also excellent.

I prefer a qualility khukuri over a qualitiy hatchet. The khukuri vibrates less, cuts a wider area (on soft woods) and is more useful for cutting chores.

Will
 
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