Can the Paramilitary 2 be considered a gravity knife?

+1 on the Swiss army. It's not ideal but when I don't carry my small sebenza I carry a standard two blade Swiss Army knife. No worries with that at all. I pull it out every time I get a legitimate chance to and the occasional illegitimate ones, "hmm, this straw is a little long..."
 
Cassander said:
But why would the locking folder law refer to folders over 4" when everything over 4" is already illegal? And I've heard this directly from the mouths of 2 shop managers who had their locking knives confiscated.
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Just because property is confiscated by law enforcement doesn't mean the property was illegal. Sometimes law enforcement personnel violate the 4th amendment and unlawfully confiscate property, and sometimes they do it at the behest of District Attorneys. Members of law enforcement will often gamble with violations of the constitution by assuming that most people don't know their rights and won't complain for fear of getting into trouble, or that most people can't or won't hire a lawyer to sue and fight the confiscation. It is an unfortunate fact in this country that people in positions of power (like law enforcement) often abuse their power and in the process violate peoples constitutional rights, and they often get away with it.


Take the clip off so you're never tempted to clip it
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I think this is great advice, and I will take it one step further-

Some cops are dishonest and might be willing to lie just a little to bolster a case. If you are in NYC and get stopped by a cop, and if that cop finds you carrying a knife with a pocket clip attached, even if the knife was being carried in a completely concealed manner, the cop could lie in court and say that he saw the knife clipped to your pocket, and that the sight of the clip gave him a lawful reason to stop the you.

Since there is in fact a clip attached to the knife, the presence of the clip would bolster the cops story that the knife was in fact clipped to your pocket, and a jury might consider the presence of the clip to be enough evidence to believe the cop. But if there is no clip attached to the knife, it would be impossible for a dishonest cop to lie and say that the knife was clipped to your pocket.

My attorney often advises me to conduct myself as though every cop is dishonest. He tells me " Give the cops as little opportunity as possible to tell plausible lies against you in court". Naturally it is impossible to completely protect oneself from the lies of dishonest cops, but removing a pocket clip is a very easy thing to do, and it's not like you want to use that clip in NYC anyway.

On a different issue, I would not advise telling a cop that you are carrying a knife for work unless you can in fact back up that story. Let's say that you are visiting NYC or that it's your day off from work and you tell a cop that you are carrying the knife "for work", technically, you have just lied to a cop (which is a crime) and that lie could be proven to be a lie later in court if you are arrested. And if you find yourself facing a jury, charged with a weapons offense, you don't want the cop taking the stand and testifying that you LIED to him, and you don't want the prosecutor to continually remind the jury that you LIED to the officer. Prosecutors LOVE to catch defendants in a lie because it gives them many opportunities to question your honesty, your character, and your true motives for carrying a knife. Imagine the prosecutor telling the jury "Why would the defendant LIE about his reason for carrying a knife? Clearly he was up to no good".

Here are a few suggestions, if you carry a bag of some sort, carry an apple. If a cop asks you why you are carrying the knife, you can say "To cut my apple". Or, if you have a reason to carry pencils, carry a few pencils that you clearly sharpened with a knife (the tip of a pencil sharpened with a knife has a distinctive look), and if a cop asks why you are carrying the knife, say it's for sharpening your pencils. These are both plausible stories, and there is no way to prove that they are untruthful.
 
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Cassander said:
I carry illegal knives in NYC all the time I just don't clip it or pull it out on the street, though I do whittle in the park, but I've never had a problem. Though I'm also white so cops don't target me the same way they do minorities up here.
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It most certainly can be considered a gravity knife. Even if you're white. Some people love to stereotype the police and foment a veiled sense of ongoing injustice for whatever reason. It's very divisive and does no good for anyone. It will certainly not be a factor in the consideration of the Paramilitary 2 being considered a gravity knife.
 
That apple advice is good. The pencil story is a little more dubious. But I think "I use it at work and am in the habit of carrying it." Can't really be disputed. The point I was trying to make though, was that just saying "it's for self defense" makes the knife illegal even if it were legal before you said that. Best thing to say of course is always "I am invoking my right to remain silent."
 
Gavin S. said:
I wouldn't want to leave anything up to the discretion of a cop. That tends to not work out.
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:thumbup: ...true dat ;)

eb1118 said:
My aunt who was a Manhattan prosecutor for a bunch of years told me that cops have been known to aggressively and exaggeratedly shake knives until they open to "prove" that they are actually gravity knives. Be careful!
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This is so true, when I got stopped with 8 knives while visiting the Statute of Liberty, (this was pre 9/11 ) they, the park rangers dad there for a good half hour trying to prove my knives were gravity knives or switchblades, they couldn't and have me all my knives back with the advice that next time I visit the statute, maybe only bring 3 or 4 knives.

22-rimfire said:
Gravity knife definition? For me, a gravity knife is any knife (generally folder) that you can flick (wrist action) the blade open even if you have to release a locking devise to do so. So if you can do that with a PM, it's a gravity knife (or can be). The ballisong is probably the classic gravity knife and they are often illegal to carry.
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I can pretty much open most folders with a blade around the 4" mark using inertia or gravity and the cops in NYC practice this and have become very adept at flicking, flipping our otherwise using the mass of the blade to open a knife.

When I go to the city I either carry my Bud Nealy Aikuchi concealed on a neck chain under my shirt or on a static cord with the knife tucked into my back pocket or an SAK, usually both. :) Even though I'm a long haired hippie lookin' biker dude I've carried whatever I've wanted without incident but than I don't advertise what I carry either.
 
When that statute was written a gravity knife was a specific thing. Later the idea of centripetal force falling under gravity knife was added. A "gravity knife" specifically was the kind of knife carried by our paratroopers in WW2. It was a handle with the blade on a track inside. A button would be pushed and the blade would slide out solely under the force of gravity and then lock in place when the button was released. You'll notice the statute specifically describes this. Centripetal force is not gravity. Very far from it.

And a bailsong is not a gravity knife under any definition, the statute even recognizes this. In the closed position the knife cannot be opened with any force gravity or centripetal. it takes at least two movements to open a balisong.
 
this is the wording of the law defining a gravity knife:

"Gravity knife" means any
knife has blade which is released from the handle or
sheath thereof by the force of gravity of the application
of centrifugal force which, when released, is locked in
place by means of a button, spring, lever, or other
device.

I do agree the thought back in the 1950s was mostly to ban true out the front gravity knives, but they were also trying to stop the sale of very loose flickable knives. There were almost no arrest for normal folding knives that you could flick open, in fact, there were several NY companies that made locking knives in the state that would be considered gravity knives today. What did happen, was true criminals were arrested with locking knives that could be flicked open and in many cases of robberies and assaults where the victim did not move forward with the compliant, the ADA would keep the weapons charge ( CPW4) activity as that is the People of the State on NY as the complainant. Nobody fought the gravity knife issue back then, as it was the true bad guys getting locked up. The court ruled that the movement of the blade away from the center of the pivot was centrifugal force ( that has been contested but never won in court), and the present enforcement of gravity knives let us with the issue we have today.
 
One last note to further illustrate the NYC knife law BS: the NYC knife show is always actually in NJ at the Jersey City Westin. Otherwise I imagine cops would hangout across the street and pick people coming out to screw with. The event organizers have imagined this as well, I assume.
 
Cassander said:
One last note to further illustrate the NYC knife law BS: the NYC knife show is always actually in NJ at the Jersey City Westin. Otherwise I imagine cops would hangout across the street and pick people coming out to screw with. The event organizers have imagined this as well, I assume.
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That reminds me of the story from a year or two ago about the NYPD detectives being sent to gun shows in Arizona to buy guns with no paperwork. This "operation" cost more than $100,000 of taxpayer money, for absolutely no credible purpose. Great job guys, you showed how you can buy guns at a show with no questions asked...knock me over with a feather!

For all of the questionable, and sometimes downright moronic, operations the ATF has put on, NYPD really takes the cake with overreaching their authority. The counterterror "intel safehouse" they ran in New Jersey (and forgot to tell the FBI about, the real agency with that kind of authority) is another gem.

It really would not surprise me if they do surveil people leaving the knife show in NJ and watch for those who drive back into the city.
 
John_0917 said:
It really would not surprise me if they do surveil people leaving the knife show in NJ and watch for those who drive back into the city.
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Do I sense an opertunity for counter-surveillance surveillance? Them spying on us spying on them?
 
Dude they have cops in packs of 3-5 stand at subway entrances for hours at a time checking bags for explosives but nothing stops you from just turning around and walking a few blocks in any direction to an unpoliced entrance. So much of policing is keeping frightened rich white people feeling comfortable enough to spend money.
 
wertydude37 said:
Do I sense an opertunity for counter-surveillance surveillance? Them spying on us spying on them?
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Perhaps, but they will probably catch you and hassle you. Another approach would be to do what the "urban activists" (or whatever the en vogue term is this week) do, which is walk up to LEOs and video them. I don't recommend either of these ideas.
 
Cassander said:
Dude they have cops in packs of 3-5 stand at subway entrances for hours at a time checking bags for explosives but nothing stops you from just turning around and walking a few blocks in any direction to an unpoliced entrance. So much of policing is keeping frightened rich white people feeling comfortable enough to spend money.
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Makes me miss the good ol' days of the early 90s when you could go on the subway and your only worry was if a homeless man was going to pull out his penis in your general vicinity...
 
My fellow Greek, heed the warnings... the PM2 will get you into trouble, as will just about any "modern" folder. I'm a former New Yorker and when I head back I either keep my SAK fieldmaster or a smaller GEC (a #76 or #73) buried deep in my pocket. It likely does not see the light of day in public. I hate to say it, but if the cop wants to make an issue of your PM2 or any other such knife--it will happen. I once had a relative (NYC cop) explain to me that by pinching the blade between your thumb and index finger and flicking the handle open, a folder can count as a gravity knife... sure that is not the technical meaning, but they are not there to debate the finer points. Stay safe brother...
 
I was wondering the exact same about my Benchmade. Here in FL gravity knives are illegal too but I've come into contact with a lot of officers that carry Benchmades, Emersons, and Spydercos. All of these can be "gravity" knives under the right circumstances.

If left to the discretion of a cop then you may get a cop who doesn't see knives as tools or a hobby and only sees you as a "Punk with a weapon" then you may be in a bit of trouble.
 
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