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I feel your pain, hawkwind. I'm a US citizen and my wife has been locked out of our home and my country for nine months now, and counting.hawkwind said:
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Can this destroy America?
- Thread starter Bill Marsh
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- 13,182
Bill Marsh said:
I think that concept is overplayed. I mean I think that whole concept of minorities being the recipients of special treatment is more an invention of politicians seeking to mobilize lower class white voters by making them think that certain races are receiving special government largesse rather than a disproportionate share of traffic stops and jail cells.
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Only America can destroy America. And sometimes, America seems willing to do so.
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- Apr 23, 2003
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- 1,413
I was talking to Yangdu this weekend and this came up. It took Uncle Bill quite some time to get a visa for Yangdu to come to the states and it took 5 years more to get visa's for her sister and Pala. Now they are still waiting....going on 10 years I think she said......for the rest of the kids to be able to join them here. They are English speaking and hard workers, too. And things in Nepal are really getting bad and dangerous.
Don't have a clue as to what the right thing to do is, but another thing they failed to mention in the article was that all of the great civilizations in the past have fallen from within after immorality wrecked havoc on the societies. That's an interesting perspective in light of the moral decline of our country in the last few years, too. Just a thought.
I don't really have an opinion since I do believe that any point.....sexual immorality, language, culture, etc, .....can be argued from many standpoints and there is probably documentation to back up any of the points. So I think the underlying situation is more that as human beings we need to learn to love everyone appropriately and help all our brothers and sisters and stop being so greedy and heartless. Americans are very well taken care on the whole and those who aren't have mostly brought their disasters on themselves.....not all, but alot. Generalizations can get you into lots of trouble in this discussion, so I am speaking from what I've seen, lived through and observed. I have lived on the side of an interracial marriage and seen the predjudice that that brought and have also seen the "reverse" discrimination of the white males who are trained but can't get hired because of the need to fill minority quotas.
So life goes on. Love everyone and treat everyone as you would treat yourself......solves lots of problems.
Don't have a clue as to what the right thing to do is, but another thing they failed to mention in the article was that all of the great civilizations in the past have fallen from within after immorality wrecked havoc on the societies. That's an interesting perspective in light of the moral decline of our country in the last few years, too. Just a thought.
I don't really have an opinion since I do believe that any point.....sexual immorality, language, culture, etc, .....can be argued from many standpoints and there is probably documentation to back up any of the points. So I think the underlying situation is more that as human beings we need to learn to love everyone appropriately and help all our brothers and sisters and stop being so greedy and heartless. Americans are very well taken care on the whole and those who aren't have mostly brought their disasters on themselves.....not all, but alot. Generalizations can get you into lots of trouble in this discussion, so I am speaking from what I've seen, lived through and observed. I have lived on the side of an interracial marriage and seen the predjudice that that brought and have also seen the "reverse" discrimination of the white males who are trained but can't get hired because of the need to fill minority quotas.
So life goes on. Love everyone and treat everyone as you would treat yourself......solves lots of problems.
This discussion is not really about prejudice. It is unreasonable to expect Great Britain to stand if 2 million illegal aliens a year entered and stayed inside her borders.
The victim philosophy is very real, and special treatment not a fiction of politicians. What is uncertain if this slant- the angle, if you allow, new or not, acheives anything not historically sought by either special interests or individuals.
People maneuver to get ahead. I sometimes think of them as the 'flavors of the month' club.
Our attention span is small. The cause of today is usually out of favor tomorow.
munk
The victim philosophy is very real, and special treatment not a fiction of politicians. What is uncertain if this slant- the angle, if you allow, new or not, acheives anything not historically sought by either special interests or individuals.
People maneuver to get ahead. I sometimes think of them as the 'flavors of the month' club.
Our attention span is small. The cause of today is usually out of favor tomorow.
munk
...Oh- what is clear in this thread is that there are persons we'd like to have here, hard working and good, who are following the rules and cannot, at least soon.
Meanwhile millions pour over the border without inspection and are granted an amnesty about every 10 to 15 years.
What is right about that?
munk
Meanwhile millions pour over the border without inspection and are granted an amnesty about every 10 to 15 years.
What is right about that?
munk
- Joined
- Sep 22, 2003
- Messages
- 13,182
munk said:
Amen! I can't understand that either!
*sigh* You see this kind of crap in every generation that has to deal with immigration.
Here is a little timeline for you (up until world war I or so).
1820-1860, Great Britain, Ireland, and Western Germany.
1860-1890, The above countries continued to provide, as well as Scandinavian Nations.
1890-1910, The majority was Austria, Hungary, Italy, and Russia, up until World War 1.
If you go and take a look at articles in the major papers during this time dealing with immigration you will see the same time of crap that you see in this article. Its a knee jerk reaction to change and nothing more. If anything immigration makes this country stronger not weaker. If we take it to the extreme even the native americans are immigrants (40,000 years is a long time, but they still came from some place else). I've added a few comments inline with the artcle as well.
This is unfortunatly true. It is usually due to a young dynamic nation slowing down and growing staid as it ages. Rome is the quinticential example of this decline. I don't doubt that the same thing will happen to the US eventually. However, the fact that we constantly take in new blood (via immigration) does more to keep us young and dynamic then it does to age us. Not that there arn't also problems associated with immigration, but all those problems we have handled successfully in the past. It always surprises me that people forget what previous generations went through.
I have never seen or heard any evidence to support this. I would like to see one single country named that was destroyed becuase it's society is bilingual. I can certainly name any number of country that are bilingual and have survided for quite some time. Hell, in Europe over half the population speaks at least two langauges. India has been a multilingual country since time immemorial. Niether have suffered becuase of this.
This is the kind of unfounded argument hucksters throw out to persuade people. It sounds kind of like it should be right, but it doesn't survive even the most cursory inspection. Unfortunatly most people don't bother to give it that inspection.
Read this statement well. It seems to support his previous statement but in reality doesn't. He jumps from talking about the impact of multilingual societies to problems of represed minorities pressing for autonomy. These are two very different and mostly unrelated problems. I think I can say that in all of the above presented cases these minorities retained thier cultural identity without being intregrated with the culture of the surrounding nation. Thats not something we do in the US. In the past we have generally been very good at integrating cultures into the fabric of the nation. Its a give and take that works, they integrate into our culture and we adopt aspects of thier culture. The culture of the nation changes as a result, but thats a more then acceptable price to pay for unity and growth.
If you define 'America' as what it is at this very second he may be right. However, America has never been defined that way. Its always in a constant state of flux thats what makes it great.
On a side note, he is bringing up a racial argument that has been completly discounted both culturaly and scientifically for almost 50 years.
[snip]
I am not going to take the time to respond to this idiot (lamm not Bill point by point. Suffice it to say that this guy wants a stagnant dead America and if he succeeds in stoping immigration thats exactly what he will get.
Here is a little timeline for you (up until world war I or so).
1820-1860, Great Britain, Ireland, and Western Germany.
1860-1890, The above countries continued to provide, as well as Scandinavian Nations.
1890-1910, The majority was Austria, Hungary, Italy, and Russia, up until World War 1.
If you go and take a look at articles in the major papers during this time dealing with immigration you will see the same time of crap that you see in this article. Its a knee jerk reaction to change and nothing more. If anything immigration makes this country stronger not weaker. If we take it to the extreme even the native americans are immigrants (40,000 years is a long time, but they still came from some place else). I've added a few comments inline with the artcle as well.
Bill Marsh said:
This is unfortunatly true. It is usually due to a young dynamic nation slowing down and growing staid as it ages. Rome is the quinticential example of this decline. I don't doubt that the same thing will happen to the US eventually. However, the fact that we constantly take in new blood (via immigration) does more to keep us young and dynamic then it does to age us. Not that there arn't also problems associated with immigration, but all those problems we have handled successfully in the past. It always surprises me that people forget what previous generations went through.
Bill Marsh said:
I have never seen or heard any evidence to support this. I would like to see one single country named that was destroyed becuase it's society is bilingual. I can certainly name any number of country that are bilingual and have survided for quite some time. Hell, in Europe over half the population speaks at least two langauges. India has been a multilingual country since time immemorial. Niether have suffered becuase of this.
This is the kind of unfounded argument hucksters throw out to persuade people. It sounds kind of like it should be right, but it doesn't survive even the most cursory inspection. Unfortunatly most people don't bother to give it that inspection.
Bill Marsh said:
Read this statement well. It seems to support his previous statement but in reality doesn't. He jumps from talking about the impact of multilingual societies to problems of represed minorities pressing for autonomy. These are two very different and mostly unrelated problems. I think I can say that in all of the above presented cases these minorities retained thier cultural identity without being intregrated with the culture of the surrounding nation. Thats not something we do in the US. In the past we have generally been very good at integrating cultures into the fabric of the nation. Its a give and take that works, they integrate into our culture and we adopt aspects of thier culture. The culture of the nation changes as a result, but thats a more then acceptable price to pay for unity and growth.
Bill Marsh said:
If you define 'America' as what it is at this very second he may be right. However, America has never been defined that way. Its always in a constant state of flux thats what makes it great.
On a side note, he is bringing up a racial argument that has been completly discounted both culturaly and scientifically for almost 50 years.
[snip]
I am not going to take the time to respond to this idiot (lamm not Bill
point by point. Suffice it to say that this guy wants a stagnant dead America and if he succeeds in stoping immigration thats exactly what he will get.
- Joined
- Dec 2, 1999
- Messages
- 12,249
I can immediately think of three issues that I think are WAY more important than illegal immigration:
- Drugs and criminal gangs
- Corruption in Gov and business that is taking away your moeny and your freedoms.
- Lip serivice to the idea of "homeland security".
This kind of "talk" a classic political manouver, wave their hands around in front of you while someone else steals your wallet.
- Drugs and criminal gangs
- Corruption in Gov and business that is taking away your moeny and your freedoms.
- Lip serivice to the idea of "homeland security".
This kind of "talk" a classic political manouver, wave their hands around in front of you while someone else steals your wallet.
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2003
- Messages
- 1,413
Well, the mass illegal immigration is in part responsible for the drug and gang problems we have down here in Phoenix. Probably in Mexifornia, too. It's kind of interesting watching the Minuteman situation down on the border......now there's a real hot topic to discuss. Illegal immigration is in part to blame for the extremely bad problem down here of identity theft. They steal stuff from boxes and trash and have caused a lot of problems.
Again, love everyone as you love yourself......but everyone has to do that or the "victims" just get run over.
Again, love everyone as you love yourself......but everyone has to do that or the "victims" just get run over.
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2004
- Messages
- 878
hawkwind said:
No matter how easy you make it, It'll always be easier to scamper over the Mexican border at night. Especially if you want to sell drugs.
Remember America is a nation of immigrants. When my ancestors came here, they learned to speak English somehow. That was the second generation, however. It must have been difficult for them. My father was the third generation and only could speak English. There's no reason to fear immigration in itself.
What we must somehow control is illegal immigration. It's not fair to those who have waited and played by the rules to have illegal immigrants given amnesty just because they have been here for a long time. It sends the wrong message. Also, bilingual education is a crock. The kids should learn English as soon as possible - and most kids pick this up quickly if they are started early. Also, in Commiefornia bilingual education usually means Spanish. This is discrimination in itself as any non-Spanish speaking immigrant is not taught in their native tongue - they have to learn English (or American as the English would have it).
What we must somehow control is illegal immigration. It's not fair to those who have waited and played by the rules to have illegal immigrants given amnesty just because they have been here for a long time. It sends the wrong message. Also, bilingual education is a crock. The kids should learn English as soon as possible - and most kids pick this up quickly if they are started early. Also, in Commiefornia bilingual education usually means Spanish. This is discrimination in itself as any non-Spanish speaking immigrant is not taught in their native tongue - they have to learn English (or American as the English would have it).
There is an easy way to keep jobs in any country, just make transportation so expensive that outsourcing manufacturing does not pay off. Actually the price of oil might do that to a degree.
TLM
Who does not take life so seriously, and has had to learn 4 languages without suffering from any too apparent schizophrenia.
TLM
Who does not take life so seriously, and has had to learn 4 languages without suffering from any too apparent schizophrenia.
I don't think you can blame people legal or illegally here for trying to improve their circumstances. This is what we all do everyday.
What I see as interesting is the fact that people don't see the direct connection to poverty and ignorance in other countries that contribute to
over population. Why for example do we not have problems with illegal
canadians? Why is it from meXico?
I see a direct relations ship with overpopulation , more people than the land can support. Simple put the more people without means to a "decent life" ( this can be interpreted in many ways) in a given area causes the mirgrations, wars, famin...etc.
Advances in agriculture during the middle ages lead directly to an overpopulation , reduction of natuaral resources ( land timber,metals food....etc ) and the expansion to the americas. Yes the people left to excape persecution (in some cases) but that was not the only reason, they wanted land too, there were landlords in europe and everyone was share croppers . Call it opportunity or what ever but it gets down to Too many people on too few resources that cause the " inopportunity" of the old world. Another way to look at is to say There is only so much to go around,
and when your population exceeds those resources the " cheaper " human life , or labor or existence gets.
The basic fact is that subsitance level here is better than subsistance level is there .
Population control will eventually be the key to solving such problems, in my opinion. Let's face it, any sepecies left without some form of population control in nature will eventually out grow their resources. Why should humans be any different? Yes, we do have technology to help us but at some point, it will have it's limits. Culturally it is accepted that to limit human life is evil. Those ethos worked 2000 years ago when there was always some place else to go or someone else to make war on but are they still valid today? They also work well If you have a war technology better than those around you, but eventually, other will gain access to the war technology. Look at nukes, how many counties now....The same thing happened with bows and arrows or even clubs.
So tell me which war was not about gaining more resources for one group or the other? Overpopulation will lead to confilict. Human life is cheaper in the resource deprived group and they have reason for more stuff ( for the deprived people). Heck even communism vs capitolism is about distribution of resources.
I think it odd that you have to have a pass a test to get a driver license, but not to have children. I also think it's odd that I have to have proof that I can pay for my house mortgage but I don't have to have that to have a child. Your right to procreate should end at you ability to afford it, nature enforces this law but humans have "outsmarted " nature. Some say it is a natural right, I suppose the same could be said for lots of acts that would be questionalble or illegal today (slavery,distillation of alcohol, consumption of drugs, domestic rape,....etc) .
The point is that we should be providing humans with the resources that they need to thrive, and not suffer through life. Population contol is the only stratigy that will work on an earth with limited resources.
The next point is that you can't stop at your border anymore.
Also , people who feel deprived have little to loose. Something the Israels have forgotten. Deprived/desperate people will pick ak's and strap on bombs. As long as people are starving they will do the same and we are only a plane ride away from anybody who has the desire.
We can turn the United States into a fortress and it won't stop it.
What I see as interesting is the fact that people don't see the direct connection to poverty and ignorance in other countries that contribute to
over population. Why for example do we not have problems with illegal
canadians? Why is it from meXico?
I see a direct relations ship with overpopulation , more people than the land can support. Simple put the more people without means to a "decent life" ( this can be interpreted in many ways) in a given area causes the mirgrations, wars, famin...etc.
Advances in agriculture during the middle ages lead directly to an overpopulation , reduction of natuaral resources ( land timber,metals food....etc ) and the expansion to the americas. Yes the people left to excape persecution (in some cases) but that was not the only reason, they wanted land too, there were landlords in europe and everyone was share croppers . Call it opportunity or what ever but it gets down to Too many people on too few resources that cause the " inopportunity" of the old world. Another way to look at is to say There is only so much to go around,
and when your population exceeds those resources the " cheaper " human life , or labor or existence gets.
The basic fact is that subsitance level here is better than subsistance level is there .
Population control will eventually be the key to solving such problems, in my opinion. Let's face it, any sepecies left without some form of population control in nature will eventually out grow their resources. Why should humans be any different? Yes, we do have technology to help us but at some point, it will have it's limits. Culturally it is accepted that to limit human life is evil. Those ethos worked 2000 years ago when there was always some place else to go or someone else to make war on but are they still valid today? They also work well If you have a war technology better than those around you, but eventually, other will gain access to the war technology. Look at nukes, how many counties now....The same thing happened with bows and arrows or even clubs.
So tell me which war was not about gaining more resources for one group or the other? Overpopulation will lead to confilict. Human life is cheaper in the resource deprived group and they have reason for more stuff ( for the deprived people). Heck even communism vs capitolism is about distribution of resources.
I think it odd that you have to have a pass a test to get a driver license, but not to have children. I also think it's odd that I have to have proof that I can pay for my house mortgage but I don't have to have that to have a child. Your right to procreate should end at you ability to afford it, nature enforces this law but humans have "outsmarted " nature. Some say it is a natural right, I suppose the same could be said for lots of acts that would be questionalble or illegal today (slavery,distillation of alcohol, consumption of drugs, domestic rape,....etc) .
The point is that we should be providing humans with the resources that they need to thrive, and not suffer through life. Population contol is the only stratigy that will work on an earth with limited resources.
The next point is that you can't stop at your border anymore.
Also , people who feel deprived have little to loose. Something the Israels have forgotten. Deprived/desperate people will pick ak's and strap on bombs. As long as people are starving they will do the same and we are only a plane ride away from anybody who has the desire.
We can turn the United States into a fortress and it won't stop it.
- Joined
- Dec 3, 2000
- Messages
- 3,002
f I'm interpreting what I'm reading correctly, (which is rare) no one seems to be "anti-immigration" I think it's more of a case of simply wanting immigrants who are willing to learn, accept and become a part of our culture, rather than merely coexisting (often times with some resentment). ie; different ethnic neighborhoods and areas.
the fact is that we DO need to stop ILLEGAL immigration- we DO need to secure our borders, and in this day and age there's not a damn thing wrong with wanting to know whos coming into your country and what they have with them.
BUT, that being it sounds to me like the process of legal immigration needs a very serious overhaul so we don't wind up with all the asinine crap like Howard and Red Flower and Yangdu's family are having to deal with.
Oh well, that seems to be how law works for us. It's alot easier to screw with people who are trying to do the right thing and pretend you've accomplished something at the end of the day than it is to deal with the AK totin' drug smuggler sneaking through the desert
the fact is that we DO need to stop ILLEGAL immigration- we DO need to secure our borders, and in this day and age there's not a damn thing wrong with wanting to know whos coming into your country and what they have with them.
BUT, that being it sounds to me like the process of legal immigration needs a very serious overhaul so we don't wind up with all the asinine crap like Howard and Red Flower and Yangdu's family are having to deal with.
Oh well, that seems to be how law works for us. It's alot easier to screw with people who are trying to do the right thing and pretend you've accomplished something at the end of the day than it is to deal with the AK totin' drug smuggler sneaking through the desert