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Can this destroy America?
- Thread starter Bill Marsh
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When all the oil plays out people will be leaving the US. Well, the northern parts anyway and heading south! 
I work with a girl who drives about 2 hours to get here each way and she says it's costing her about 19 bucks a day now.
I agree on the population issue. If you look at the areas with the highest amount of war and famine it is usually the area with highest population. If the wealth of a nation stems from it's natural resources then areas with few resources but many people will be the areas where there is war, famine, and people move FROM. The key we gotta think about HERE is as we let all those people move here that we don't let the "range" become "overgrazed" or we will end up with the same problems.
In a situation where there is enough of everything to go around people can be taught or just learn to overcome racisim, discrimination, or cultural bias. In a situation where there is too much competition it is virtually impossible.
I work with a girl who drives about 2 hours to get here each way and she says it's costing her about 19 bucks a day now.
I agree on the population issue. If you look at the areas with the highest amount of war and famine it is usually the area with highest population. If the wealth of a nation stems from it's natural resources then areas with few resources but many people will be the areas where there is war, famine, and people move FROM. The key we gotta think about HERE is as we let all those people move here that we don't let the "range" become "overgrazed" or we will end up with the same problems.
In a situation where there is enough of everything to go around people can be taught or just learn to overcome racisim, discrimination, or cultural bias. In a situation where there is too much competition it is virtually impossible.
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I had a co-worker that would constantly repeat the idiotic mantra that "immigrants contribute more to the economy than they take." He was specifically speaking of the hordes of illegals that pour across our southern border. I told him that by that logic, we should open our doors wide to the hundreds of millions trying to get in and become instantly fantastically wealthy and productive.
People like the guy who don't understand Bill's post and consider it immigrant bashing are too blind to see that as Munk said, we are not talking about legal immigration (and after all we are all immigrants, even the Ndn folks came here from somewhere else thousands of years ago), but the masses of illegals. They contribute far less than they take, and this has been absolutely documented by study after study. Free schooling, free health care, higher crime, it never ends. They are not part of the melting pot, they do not choose to assimilate, they will not learn English, they want this to be "Aztlan", or Mexico North. Parts of my town look like Tijuana on a bad day.
WRT Diversity: at my Company "Diversity" is a holy word. If you do not embrace "Diversity", you are a racist pure and simple. And yet, this company had fewer than 6 black employees, and I hired 2 of them. (But I'm a racist.) I have hired folks from all races and orientations: hispanics, Indian folks (not NA, but Indian), Chinese, Japanese, Phillipino, German, Irish, Turkish, Iranian, gays, lesbians, etc., etc., etc. (But I am a racist.) Out of the team of 22 people that I manage, 4 are Caucasion, including me.
I am a racist because I oppose attempts to balkanize or divide the group. Black History Month was one month of 3X daily emails extolling the virtues of black people from the distant past who had invented potato flakes, or a tractor gear cog, or some widget or another. They stopped with this after I posted my own laudatory background of Billie "Buckwheat" Thomas (1931-1980), the kid who made "The Little Rascals" famous. I thought it was actually pretty hilarious, especially as the life history I wrote for him was completely fictitous. (Did you know he killed several fans with a butcher knife after they insulted "Spanky" by making comments about his weight? Seems he and Spanky were an item. 'Nuff said.)
In responding to the angry emails from our "Diversity Director" (I swear we really have one who is paid 6 figures per year), I said that I did not mind people taking pride in their culture, but that we should all consider ourselves Americans first rather thn separate balkanized races occupying the same country. This generated a "talk about my racist attitudes" with my Director and the Diversity lady.
They also stopped work for a half-day in February, and had a presentation about African-American History, to which we were all required to attend. The presentation began with the singing of "The Black National Anthem", and a color guard bringing in the "Black Flag" (I thought that was a roach killer), at which point we were all asked to rise and salute the flag. People actually stood up and did this. In amazement I walked out, thereby earning another slip in my "Diversity file." We already have a damned National Anthem for Goddsake. It's called "The Star-Spangled Banner", and last I checked the namesake of that song was our own American Stars and Stripes. The American flag is not the "white peoples flag", it is everyone's, and God knows a rainbow of skin colors has defended it over the past 230 years.
Sorry, got a bit OT there. Munk nailed the point: The bottom line WRT immigration is that the illegals cut in line in front of people that have been waiting years to enter the country legally. They set up shop for a few years, and then clueless pandering fools like Bush make them all legal and they can then jump the line AGAIN and bring over their 5-10 million relatives. Meanwhile Mexico has no incentive to deal with their rampant unemployment and corrupt govenrment, as long as they can bleed off the dregs of their society to the US.
No wonder Mexico's ambassador to the US said that any attempt by the US to completely seal its southern border would be considered an "Act of War" by the Mexican Government!
Time to kick-ass on the American companies who employ illegals and cheat them or pay them slave wages, and convince their friends in Congress to keep the flood coming. Time to seal our borders and decide ourselves that 250,000 - 300,000 legal immigrants per year from all nations is about right, not 3 million each year from Mexico alone.
Time for the Republicans to stop immitating the Democrats by pandering to these illegals to get them to vote for their party. Time to exercise some national will and take our country back. And if that means that I have to pay $20 for a head of lettuce, then that's fine with me. I'll gain far more than that in lower taxes, lower healthcare costs, lower school operating costs, smaller classrooms, reduced crime rates, and fewer terrorists crossing at will into our country.
Sorry for the long-winded response (if you read this far! (-
Regards,
Norm
BTW, great post Bill. I'm saving the text in my "Illegal Immigration / Decline of Empire" file.
People like the guy who don't understand Bill's post and consider it immigrant bashing are too blind to see that as Munk said, we are not talking about legal immigration (and after all we are all immigrants, even the Ndn folks came here from somewhere else thousands of years ago), but the masses of illegals. They contribute far less than they take, and this has been absolutely documented by study after study. Free schooling, free health care, higher crime, it never ends. They are not part of the melting pot, they do not choose to assimilate, they will not learn English, they want this to be "Aztlan", or Mexico North. Parts of my town look like Tijuana on a bad day.
WRT Diversity: at my Company "Diversity" is a holy word. If you do not embrace "Diversity", you are a racist pure and simple. And yet, this company had fewer than 6 black employees, and I hired 2 of them. (But I'm a racist.) I have hired folks from all races and orientations: hispanics, Indian folks (not NA, but Indian), Chinese, Japanese, Phillipino, German, Irish, Turkish, Iranian, gays, lesbians, etc., etc., etc. (But I am a racist.) Out of the team of 22 people that I manage, 4 are Caucasion, including me.
I am a racist because I oppose attempts to balkanize or divide the group. Black History Month was one month of 3X daily emails extolling the virtues of black people from the distant past who had invented potato flakes, or a tractor gear cog, or some widget or another. They stopped with this after I posted my own laudatory background of Billie "Buckwheat" Thomas (1931-1980), the kid who made "The Little Rascals" famous. I thought it was actually pretty hilarious, especially as the life history I wrote for him was completely fictitous. (Did you know he killed several fans with a butcher knife after they insulted "Spanky" by making comments about his weight? Seems he and Spanky were an item. 'Nuff said.)
In responding to the angry emails from our "Diversity Director" (I swear we really have one who is paid 6 figures per year), I said that I did not mind people taking pride in their culture, but that we should all consider ourselves Americans first rather thn separate balkanized races occupying the same country. This generated a "talk about my racist attitudes" with my Director and the Diversity lady.
They also stopped work for a half-day in February, and had a presentation about African-American History, to which we were all required to attend. The presentation began with the singing of "The Black National Anthem", and a color guard bringing in the "Black Flag" (I thought that was a roach killer), at which point we were all asked to rise and salute the flag. People actually stood up and did this. In amazement I walked out, thereby earning another slip in my "Diversity file." We already have a damned National Anthem for Goddsake. It's called "The Star-Spangled Banner", and last I checked the namesake of that song was our own American Stars and Stripes. The American flag is not the "white peoples flag", it is everyone's, and God knows a rainbow of skin colors has defended it over the past 230 years.
Sorry, got a bit OT there. Munk nailed the point: The bottom line WRT immigration is that the illegals cut in line in front of people that have been waiting years to enter the country legally. They set up shop for a few years, and then clueless pandering fools like Bush make them all legal and they can then jump the line AGAIN and bring over their 5-10 million relatives. Meanwhile Mexico has no incentive to deal with their rampant unemployment and corrupt govenrment, as long as they can bleed off the dregs of their society to the US.
No wonder Mexico's ambassador to the US said that any attempt by the US to completely seal its southern border would be considered an "Act of War" by the Mexican Government!
Time to kick-ass on the American companies who employ illegals and cheat them or pay them slave wages, and convince their friends in Congress to keep the flood coming. Time to seal our borders and decide ourselves that 250,000 - 300,000 legal immigrants per year from all nations is about right, not 3 million each year from Mexico alone.
Time for the Republicans to stop immitating the Democrats by pandering to these illegals to get them to vote for their party. Time to exercise some national will and take our country back. And if that means that I have to pay $20 for a head of lettuce, then that's fine with me. I'll gain far more than that in lower taxes, lower healthcare costs, lower school operating costs, smaller classrooms, reduced crime rates, and fewer terrorists crossing at will into our country.
Sorry for the long-winded response (if you read this far! (-
Regards,
Norm
BTW, great post Bill. I'm saving the text in my "Illegal Immigration / Decline of Empire" file.
- Joined
- May 28, 2003
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Gee Norm, don't hold back. Tell us what you really think
GREAT post #17 Bill.
I only disagree with one part.
I'm Scot/Irish ancestory, also. Scotch is a Whiskey. I was abruptly corrected on that fine point one night having a few drinks at the Pub, in England, by Scot, Welsh, Irishman while drinking and playing darts. Boy, could they ever sing after a few drinks.
I only disagree with one part.
I'm Scot/Irish ancestory, also. Scotch is a Whiskey. I was abruptly corrected on that fine point one night having a few drinks at the Pub, in England, by Scot, Welsh, Irishman while drinking and playing darts. Boy, could they ever sing after a few drinks.
- Joined
- May 4, 2001
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- 1,553
I agree with Svashtar and Munk. I live in the central valley of California and work in the Bay Area. I have lived here for my whole life, and things have really changed in the last 20 years. We are literally over run with illegals, in our schools, in our work places. The company that I worked at a while back was getting ready to go public, so decided that they better make sure that their house was in order. The private investigators that they hired identified that almost 20 % of our clean room staff was illegally here. They all had phony papers and stolen identities. I think the people that say we're full of $hit should come live here for a couple of years and see what an impact these people are having :grumpy: I have nothing against immigrants, I'm the son of one, my oldest sister is one. I am saying that we don't need just a bunch of strong backs anymore, we can be selective and have controlled growth. Culture will change with time, but I prefer it done slower than due to a invasion of people that are unwilling or too ignorant to jump through the hoops to get here. Respectfully, Steve
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munk said:
Thanks Munk, that is exactly what happened. But I guess I (we in CA) can't complain compared to some folks in other states. A friend of lived in Del Rio Texas, which evidently is right on the US/Mexico border. He said his cars and house was broken into so many times that it became a joke. He had fences broken down and gates left open, and in that country leaving a gate open can mean a death sentence for livestock.
His family had lived there since the early '50's, and it got so bad they packed up and moved to CA (out of the frying pan and into the fire!).
People know all about the folks in AZ and what they are trying to do, but at the border of southern CA and Mexico I hear it's even worse. I have to drive my daughter down to San Diego in June, and am saving up for a car alarm with ignition disable already. I have my first new car since 1992 and am paranoid about losing it, which is stupid I guess, as if someone wants it they'll get it no matter what I do.
My brother-in-law had his new Chevy work truck and all his tools stolen from a SD motel room last year (he's a contractor), and when they found the truck, or what was left of it, it was in Mexico. Total loss and of course all the tools were gone. To be fair though, people have to be able to go back and forth across the border, so I don't know how that could easily have been prevented. 60 minutes did a story on the problem and found that the Tijuana police chief and most of his officers were driving stolen American SUV's.
In any case, and especially in light of 9/11 and the panic surrounding that and the creation of the Homeland Security Dept., I cannot understand why so little attention is given to the border patrol, and people are ignoring the huge problem of illegal immigration. People call the folks in AZ manning the borders "vigilantes", and even Condie Rice whom I respect very much dissed the Minutemen Patrols last week. But what are she and the Administration doing? Ignoring the problem. Why? For two reasons: big ag business LOVES cheap, illegal labor, and both political parties LOVE the influx of new voters and both are trying to pander to them with more and more goodies.
There was already one amnesty for illegals. Can you imagine another? Conservative estimates are that it would add 15-20 million to the US population practically overnight. Some punishment for breaking the law!
OK, off my soapbox now!
I'll go stand in the corner for a while and give someone else a chance.Regards,
Norm
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Norm, I think that we are up to our third amnesty now. If I'm not mistaken Ronald Reagan was the first to give an amnesty to illegals. I say we beef up our borders, and streamline our work visa process. We will know who is here, still have relatively cheap labor, and the people coming here will have protection against those that would take advantage of them because they were here legally.
Steve
Steve
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- Sep 22, 2003
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Svashtar said:
But actually the Democrats originally were against a lot of immigration too. Only since big businesses have so much pull in the political process have BOTH parties ignored this issue. Remember traditionally Democrats were the parties of unions. That was before Reagan broke the unions and before Clinton passed NAFTA. Unions were against a lot of immigration for the reasons you mention above.
You raise a very good point. Our country has become so greedy for cheap goods that we are willing to sell out our neighbors jobs so we can buy more plastic crap. What we don't realize is we are selling out our own jobs too eventually.
Just remember, we can complain about it all we want but as long as you shop at Wal Mart, as long as you buy the cheapest and don't think about your brother then you are part of the problem.
Also regarding the money supposedly contributed to the economy? Check this out how much they send OUT of the economy.
http://www.iadb.org/exr/remittances/index.cfm?language=english
If I want to buy foreign goods, I'd rather buy direct from them or from somebody like HI who guarantees a standard of living for their workers rather than supporting some multinational.
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Svashtar said:
Norm, i'm not that up to speed on auto theft, but I have been told in the past that if you get an alarm system on your car that disables the ignition, then it should be the type that lets the thief drive off about 30 feet before it kills the engine. Technically, if a lowlife breaks into your car, rips off your steering coulmn, wrecks your ignition switch, and the car does not move.. in most places that is dubbed as vandalism not GTA. So you don't get as much back on insurance and the punk gets a fine and a slap on the wrist.
If your car travels X number of feet, then it is stolen. Usually more money back for you and the punk, if caught, gets a GTA charge brought against him.
Like I said, i know nothing about this other than what i have seen on cop TV shows or heard second hand...just something to think about.
btw, excellent posts all. Great reading.
Jake
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cliff355 said:
I know what you mean. When us and China get in the final rundown for all the worlds oil they won't even have to go to war with us. They can just dump all the US gov't bonds they have bought on the market that are propping up our tax cutting deficit spending and we will be on our knees. If we WOULD get into a war with them they would also win because they could cut off our supply lines and since we have no manufacturing base anymore we would be incapable of producing replacements. They, on the other hand could make about anything they needed. I'm not sure why our lack of domestic production and trade deficit is not seen as a national defense issue
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hollowdweller said:
I agree with you at least on the above.
Although I do have a horse in this race, Walmart, and their business practices, is lowering the standard of living for a huge number of people. The company I work for competes against Wal-mart. I don't have the figures in front of me, and I don't know if I still have them, but the money that Wal-Mart spends on H&W payments for it's employees is much lower than the others in this industry.
I'm sure there are several websites that detail this, but let me also remind you that if they don't get insurance from their employer, you and I are still paying for them through our taxes one way or another.
Don't forget their problem with hiring illegals to clean their stores.
Locking employees in during night shift work
Union busting.
Frankly although I was a shopper there in my youth, the last several times I've done Comp checks against them I was aghast at the store conditions.
Like I said, I'm biased, but I admit it. Once again, vote with your pocket book.
Are you pro union? Then why shop Wal-mart? They decidely aren't.
Are you a "buy American" type? Do you check your labels when you buy?
Are you for Universal Health Care? Then shouldn't you support businesses that provide health care for their employees?
Linky to oil change thread
Rusty post linky
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Interesting points. There are those in congress that think even our national defense is not a national defense issue. For instance, the big flap about where our aerial refueling tankers should be made. It seems a European government-subsidized consortium can probably undercut the market price on this type of military hardware. Hey, if Europeans are willing to tax themselves to give us inexpensive military hardware, is it really so bad if we lose the ability to make it ourselves? They'll always be our friends, right?hollowdweller said:I know what you mean. When us and China get in the final rundown for all the worlds oil they won't even have to go to war with us. They can just dump all the US gov't bonds they have bought on the market that are propping up our tax cutting deficit spending and we will be on our knees. If we WOULD get into a war with them they would also win because they could cut off our supply lines and since we have no manufacturing base anymore we would be incapable of producing replacements. They, on the other hand could make about anything they needed. I'm not sure why our lack of domestic production and trade deficit is not seen as a national defense issue
I think you have hit the nail on the head twice. Increase the boarder security and create a manageable work visa system. If we can put a man on the moon we can do both. I wouldn't think we will stop every thing but I do think we could put more control on it. I would sure rather put the money into something for my country than doing the job the UN should be able to handle (yes, the UN need major reform).
also I agree with your last post. We are in more economic trouble than we are from a few middle east kooks with aks and grenades. If the world decieded to stop buying bonds and the fuel crise hits sooner than later, without any public transport infrastructure, we are screwed, we will all be remebering the good ol days......
We are dumping billions into swating flies, Not saying that the fly doesn't need to be swatted, just that we need to be working on a secure economic future for this country.
In a world with as competitive as we have today and in the future, remember more and more counties are industrializing. We have to find new sources of fuel and technology. Guns will not protect us from economic threats in the long term , unless we are commited to ruling the earth.
Personally , I think balancing the budjet is a big thing we can do to help, maybe we do a constitutional amendment, Congress needs sort of motivation to get spending under control , there is not much of an incentive. Maybe the judicial takes over at that point? We probably wouldn't be having a Social security problem at all if they had not raided the till.
I also think we need to reinvest in space exploration, the whole information age grew out of it. Let's put colonies out there , I'm sure we will get all kinds of new technology that we can fuel our economies with, Other nations know this and that is why they are all trying to get " out there" so they will have a handle on the " next big thing"., While we are sitting around argueing about foam?
I also think we need to get over the "us vs them" of politics, if you get all your information from one source or political view point , I think your being programed.
Oh yeah guys, the problem is not just in california now, it's in Ga too. The whole south east as a matter of fact.
yeah I know off the point for the most part...sorry had to write it down....
also I agree with your last post. We are in more economic trouble than we are from a few middle east kooks with aks and grenades. If the world decieded to stop buying bonds and the fuel crise hits sooner than later, without any public transport infrastructure, we are screwed, we will all be remebering the good ol days......
We are dumping billions into swating flies, Not saying that the fly doesn't need to be swatted, just that we need to be working on a secure economic future for this country.
In a world with as competitive as we have today and in the future, remember more and more counties are industrializing. We have to find new sources of fuel and technology. Guns will not protect us from economic threats in the long term , unless we are commited to ruling the earth.
Personally , I think balancing the budjet is a big thing we can do to help, maybe we do a constitutional amendment, Congress needs sort of motivation to get spending under control , there is not much of an incentive. Maybe the judicial takes over at that point? We probably wouldn't be having a Social security problem at all if they had not raided the till.
I also think we need to reinvest in space exploration, the whole information age grew out of it. Let's put colonies out there , I'm sure we will get all kinds of new technology that we can fuel our economies with, Other nations know this and that is why they are all trying to get " out there" so they will have a handle on the " next big thing"., While we are sitting around argueing about foam?
I also think we need to get over the "us vs them" of politics, if you get all your information from one source or political view point , I think your being programed.
Oh yeah guys, the problem is not just in california now, it's in Ga too. The whole south east as a matter of fact.
yeah I know off the point for the most part...sorry had to write it down....
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Howard Wallace said:
It used to be that the armed services were sacred to the GOP, the unions to the Democrats.
The Dems passed Nafta , the GOP is essentially scabbing out the military by using private contractors, using part timers they don't have to pay benefits to, and by cutting benefits and extending tours.
Here's my scenario
As the gov't pays more for the army and injured in wars we will rely more on private companies like Blackwater, but they will be bigger.
Eventually the whole army will be privatized. This will allow companies with labor disputes to hire them too. If a company is having trouble in the Mid East they will hire the private army to come defend their interests.
Gradually this will evolve into a global military since US private soldiers would demand too much money and benefits. Private companies will scour the worlds trouble spots for people who have been in combat since they were kids and develop a multi racial army of hardened combat veterans. Besides gaining more experienced soldiers, they will also pick high IQ people from other countries that can't find jobs.
Eventually this army will become multinational, no longer working for the US or US companies. It will work for the highest bidder. Then, what begun as a cost cutting measure will become instead of an arms race a money race between nations to buy them for their conflicts.
Finally after the battle is over one nation will fail to pay and the army will attack and seize their oil or some other asset for payment. Soon after the "GLOBAL PROTECTION RACKET" will be born where each country will pay the floating military protection money not to get attacked.
May never happen but it kind of follows the progression of stuff
Great stuff Hollow, but what if the UN hired these guys ? Is it possible to
circumvent stuff like this with a functioning world government with checks and balances? It could be used to spank petty dictators , terrorist , drug
smugglers... etc with much better economy than we could. With a professional officer corp these guys would be the worlds best.
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brantoken said:
The UN would never have the money to hire them
Dumping bonds means a lot of angry bond holders- like Japan and Germany. They aint going to do it- kill the cow, and they aren't going to let others do it without reprisal. Pure self interest.
There is no return to a mythological America where everything is home grown. Unions won't bring this back. Boycotting Walmart will not change anything except improve Sears stock.
I don't like it; you don't like it. But there it is. Perhaps when oil gets more expensive industries might start again, but there will be other factors and 'cheap' aint one of them. Besides, Oil isn't going anywhere. Russia has oil, and if the nations of the former SU get their act together OPEC may take a hit.
Panic is understandable. Simple slogans understandable. But the truth is you can't go back.
What is interesting will be to see what China does with all that money.
"" If we WOULD get into a war with them they would also win because they could cut off our supply lines and since we have no manufacturing base anymore we would be incapable of producing replacements. They, on the other hand could make about anything they needed. I'm not sure why our lack of domestic production and trade deficit is not seen as a national defense issue :"" Hollow
'Tax cutting deficit spending?" You mean like spending for medical care for illegal aliens? This phrase mixes a bad thing with a good thing so we'll accept the premise. Just say; "Raise Taxes" and look how much sympathy that gathers.
"Cut our supply lines" ? Yes, the Chinese Airforce and Navy are world dominant.
"No manufacturing base"? We saw how fast just such a base arrived 50 years ago. Who says it is not here now, anyway? The unions at Ford?
Hollow, we all dread becoming a WalMart Nation, but the solution, even if there is one, isn't clear.
This thread was about illegal immigration. It has branched into domestic and global concerns effecting our quality of life. Isn't that a tacit admission Illegal immigration is a problem, even from the Liberals amongst us?
munk
There is no return to a mythological America where everything is home grown. Unions won't bring this back. Boycotting Walmart will not change anything except improve Sears stock.
I don't like it; you don't like it. But there it is. Perhaps when oil gets more expensive industries might start again, but there will be other factors and 'cheap' aint one of them. Besides, Oil isn't going anywhere. Russia has oil, and if the nations of the former SU get their act together OPEC may take a hit.
Panic is understandable. Simple slogans understandable. But the truth is you can't go back.
What is interesting will be to see what China does with all that money.
"" If we WOULD get into a war with them they would also win because they could cut off our supply lines and since we have no manufacturing base anymore we would be incapable of producing replacements. They, on the other hand could make about anything they needed. I'm not sure why our lack of domestic production and trade deficit is not seen as a national defense issue :"" Hollow
'Tax cutting deficit spending?" You mean like spending for medical care for illegal aliens? This phrase mixes a bad thing with a good thing so we'll accept the premise. Just say; "Raise Taxes" and look how much sympathy that gathers.
"Cut our supply lines" ? Yes, the Chinese Airforce and Navy are world dominant.
"No manufacturing base"? We saw how fast just such a base arrived 50 years ago. Who says it is not here now, anyway? The unions at Ford?
Hollow, we all dread becoming a WalMart Nation, but the solution, even if there is one, isn't clear.
This thread was about illegal immigration. It has branched into domestic and global concerns effecting our quality of life. Isn't that a tacit admission Illegal immigration is a problem, even from the Liberals amongst us?
munk