Canada Customs and Axis Locks!

Steely Dan · Jun 18, 2016

Goosey said:
Yes, you can find them, but they may also be illegal. The Criminal Code says:

prohibited weapon means

(a) a knife that has a blade that opens automatically by gravity or centrifugal force or by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in or attached to the handle of the knife

Can you open your Axis lock folder with a flick of the wrist and without touching the blade? If so...

I have not talked to Border Services yet. I have never owned an Axis Lock knife before. I'm thinking it will flunk the flick test, but it is new in box so maybe the pivot is snug. It doesn't look good.

Jens Schuetz · Jun 18, 2016

Goosey said:
Yes, you can find them, but they may also be illegal. The Criminal Code says:

prohibited weapon means

(a) a knife that has a blade that opens automatically by gravity or centrifugal force or by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in or attached to the handle of the knife

Can you open your Axis lock folder with a flick of the wrist and without touching the blade? If so...

It doesn't open automatically or by gravity or by centrifugal force or by hand pressure applied to a button or device etc.
It opens after disengaging the axis lock AND centrifugal force.
Big difference between "and" and "or"

Leon. · Jun 19, 2016

Jens Schuetz said:
It doesn't open automatically or by gravity or by centrifugal force or by hand pressure applied to a button or device etc.
It opens after disengaging the axis lock AND centrifugal force.
Big difference between "and" and "or"

all the benchmade axis lock knives I own can be opened with a hard enough wrist action, without even touching the axis lock...so unless the pivot is tightened down all the way I'm pretty sure all axis lock knives would fail the test at the border..

Jens Schuetz · Jun 19, 2016

Leon. said:
all the benchmade axis lock knives I own can be opened with a hard enough wrist action, without even touching the axis lock...so unless the pivot is tightened down all the way I'm pretty sure all axis lock knives would fail the test at the border..

Arrgh Thanks Leon for pointing that out.

My Adamas certainly flies out but all my other BMs have a solid detent unless I apply unreasonable (imo) strength. Probably since they are assisted they stay in better?
Would assisted BMs be an option for Canadians and then they deassist them per their preference?

BTW what would they think of a gravity auto knife which has a safety? Would they assume the user doesn't use the safety and thus it's illegal or would they assume the user uses the safety and thus it's not just pressing one button anymore but two and becomes legal?
Maybe if it's shipped with the safety engaged it's fine and if disengaged it's not?

I can see how it's confusing to normal people but that's no excuse for the customs guys. It's their job after all.

Leon. · Jun 19, 2016

Jens Schuetz said:
Arrgh Thanks Leon for pointing that out.

My Adamas certainly flies out but all my other BMs have a solid detent unless I apply unreasonable (imo) strength. Probably since they are assisted they stay in better?
Would assisted BMs be an option for Canadians and then they deassist them per their preference?

BTW what would they think of a gravity auto knife which has a safety? Would they assume the user doesn't use the safety and thus it's illegal or would they assume the user uses the safety and thus it's not just pressing one button anymore but two and becomes legal?
Maybe if it's shipped with the safety engaged it's fine and if disengaged it's not?

I can see how it's confusing to normal people but that's no excuse for the customs guys. It's their job after all.

Although spring assisted (torsion bar) knives are supposed to be an exception and legal in Canada, the CBSA has it's own interpretation of the law and what defines the word "automatic". As someone else already pointed out, even though torsion bar assisted knives (like zt 0566 or 0350) are opened by applying pressure to the flipper tab - which is part of the blade, NOT the handle - they say the blade is connected to the handle at the pivot, so the flipper is also part of the handle, and thereby justify confiscating assisted knives.
Take a look at this case: http://www.citt.gc.ca/en/node/7447

Filing a dispute is completely pointless, as others have already pointed out.

marcus52AR · Jun 19, 2016

I just read a fair bit of the link that you posted Leon. It make one worry that no knife is safe from the reach of the cbsa. If they want it to be a prohibited item, it will be a prohibited item.. common sense does not prevail

Steely Dan · Jun 19, 2016

O.P here, I am just hoping at this point that I'm not in any trouble. I did not think of an Axis lock knife as illegal and I knew they were widely sold here. I found a modestly priced version and ordered it, a month later I ordered a different one as an extra beater and both packages are in their hands. Looks kinda bad with the multiple packages. All I can do is let them know I would never knowingly import prohibited items into Canada and surrender them for destruction. Such a waste of G-10 and Axis lock goodness.

bflying · Jun 19, 2016

Soon Canadian Customs will simply confiscate (personally acquire) ALL knives entering. Because, really, no one ever really NEEDS a weapon (tool) more dangerous than a fork with a cork. [emoji23].

Man, I really feel for you. But stupidity is not limited to customs. Just recently in Utah, there were some random reports of people not getting some mail that they were expecting. We're not just talking about junk mail, but legal documents, utility bills, etc. Misdirections happen all the time, and they were all simply dismissed. Then one day a woman noticed a mail truck next to an open dumpster. She thought he lingered longer than it would take to toss garbage from lunch, so she decided to take a peek. What she found was the dumpster nearly full of mail and packages. According to the news report I watched, they estimated into the thousands of individual pieces in two dumpsters side by side. And since the reports to the post office were spread out over time, it wasn't an isolated incident. And so it goes, wherever you have power with little to no oversight and accountability, you will find corruption.

Call me crazy, but I would bet, in comparison , postal workers around the world have a high rate of very nice knives in their pockets, as compared to the average Joe.

________________________________________________________
People Are Strange, When You're a Stranger.

Steely Dan · Jun 19, 2016

bflying said:
Soon Canadian Customs will simply confiscate (personally acquire) ALL knives entering. Because, really, no one ever really NEEDS a weapon (tool) more dangerous than a fork with a cork. [emoji23].

Man, I really feel for you. But stupidity is not limited to customs. Just recently in Utah, there were some random reports of people not getting some mail that they were expecting. We're not just talking about junk mail, but legal documents, utility bills, etc. Misdirections happen all the time, and they were all simply dismissed. Then one day a woman noticed a mail truck next to an open dumpster. She thought he lingered longer than it would take to toss garbage from lunch, so she decided to take a peek. What she found was the dumpster nearly full of mail and packages. According to the news report I watched, they estimated into the thousands of individual pieces in two dumpsters side by side. And since the reports to the post office were spread out over time, it wasn't an isolated incident. And so it goes, wherever you have power with little to no oversight and accountability, you will find corruption.

Call me crazy, but I would bet, in comparison , postal workers around the world have a high rate of very nice knives in their pockets, as compared to the average Joe.

________________________________________________________
People Are Strange, When You're a Stranger.

''May I take your Trident Sir?''

Steely Dan · Jun 19, 2016

bflying said:
Soon Canadian Customs will simply confiscate (personally acquire) ALL knives entering. Because, really, no one ever really NEEDS a weapon (tool) more dangerous than a fork with a cork. [emoji23].

Man, I really feel for you. But stupidity is not limited to customs. Just recently in Utah, there were some random reports of people not getting some mail that they were expecting. We're not just talking about junk mail, but legal documents, utility bills, etc. Misdirections happen all the time, and they were all simply dismissed. Then one day a woman noticed a mail truck next to an open dumpster. She thought he lingered longer than it would take to toss garbage from lunch, so she decided to take a peek. What she found was the dumpster nearly full of mail and packages. According to the news report I watched, they estimated into the thousands of individual pieces in two dumpsters side by side. And since the reports to the post office were spread out over time, it wasn't an isolated incident. And so it goes, wherever you have power with little to no oversight and accountability, you will find corruption.

Call me crazy, but I would bet, in comparison , postal workers around the world have a high rate of very nice knives in their pockets, as compared to the average Joe.

________________________________________________________
People Are Strange, When You're a Stranger.

If it isn't Customs shanghai'ing your goods, it's Post services or courier companies. If it isn't them, it's Porch Pirates! You can't win.:thumbdn:

jpm2 · Jun 19, 2016

I've heard and read many twisted interpretations, this one is Illogical & unreasonable at best...
I don't believe any judge, arbitrator, or "tribunal" worth their salt would have to think twice before dismissing this position.

In or Attached to the Handle

40.Knife & Key submitted that, because the protrusion is located on the blade of the knife, not on the handle, the goods in issue do not meet the definition of prohibited weapon in paragraph 84(1)(a) of the Criminal Code.

41.The Tribunal has previously interpreted the attached to requirement broadly, as it found that the thumb lever and thumb button on the goods in issue in R. Christie, both of which were located on the blade, were nevertheless attached to the handle of the knife in some way.[32]

42.Through its careful examination of the goods in issue, the Tribunal determined that pressing on the protrusion engages the torsion bar or spring system, which is integrated into the handle. Accordingly, it can be said that the knives open by pressing a device attached to the handle, as the protrusion must be attached to the spring or torsion bar mechanism in order to activate it.

43.Alternatively, if the torsion bar or spring system is itself considered to be the device, then the evidence clearly shows that it is located within the handle.

44.As a result, the Tribunal finds that the blades of the remaining five models of goods in issue open by hand pressure applied to . . . a button, spring or other device in or attached to the handle of the knife . . . .

45.Finally, since the Tribunal has already found that all the goods in issue are prohibited in accordance with paragraph 84(1)(a) of the Criminal Code, it is not necessary to address the CBSAs subsidiary argument that one of the knives is prohibited on the grounds that it is a brass knuckles device.

http://www.citt.gc.ca/en/node/7447

Leon. · Jun 19, 2016

basically these days, if they open your package, they are more than likely to take your knife..whether that knife is sold legally in canada or not is irrelevant to them...
in a way maybe it's best if they are not aware that those knives are sold by Canadian dealers..who knows maybe they'll start blocking dealers' shipments too and then we are royally f**ked...

marcus52AR · Jun 19, 2016

Leon. said:
basically these days, if they open your package, they are more than likely to take your knife..whether that knife is sold legally in canada or not is irrelevant to them...
in a way maybe it's best if they are not aware that those knives are sold by Canadian dealers..who knows maybe they'll start blocking dealers' shipments too and then we are royally f**ked...

I was thinking this as well, maybe we should stay "shhh" about all of these prohibited items we can find at many,many retailer's around the country. Or... I don't know.

It's just silly.

Leon. · Jun 19, 2016

marcus52AR said:
I was thinking this as well, maybe we should stay "shhh" about all of these prohibited items we can find at many,many retailer's around the country. Or... I don't know.

It's just silly.

Exactly lol
It's a pretty bad situation, but it could always get worse....

Danke42 · Jun 19, 2016

So just to be clear. The past ruling we were all using as a reference was this Importing and Exporting Firearms, Weapons and Devices Memorandum D19-13-2

http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/publications/dm-md/d19/d19-13-2-eng.html#a4x2

With this particular reference regarding assisted opening knives being excepted as a prohibited device.

21. Weapons that fall under paragraph (a) include the following:

(a) Automatic knife (switchblade) An automatic knife that houses a blade that will open automatically by hand pressure applied to a lever or button in or attached to the handle (but not on the blade) of the knife. The blade is released by pressure on the lever or button, and opens with the assistance of an internal spring or mechanism.
(b) Centrifugal knife (folding knife, butterfly knife, balisong knife) A centrifugal knife is one that opens automatically through the use of centrifugal force. Centrifugal force may be defined as a force, arising from the body's inertia, which appears to act on a body moving in a circular path and is directed away from the centre around which the body is moving. That is, centrifugal force is established when the blade of the knife may be opened with the flick of the wrist. Note that extra manipulation and a requirement for some skill to release the blade do not prevent a knife from being a prohibited weapon. A balisong or butterfly knife is a form of centrifugal knife with two handles that counter-rotate around the blade such that, when closed, the blade is concealed within grooves in the handles.
(c) Gravity knife A gravity knife is a knife which may be opened automatically by force of gravity. The knife may be additionally controlled by a lever or button, but typically, applying pressure to such a device and pointing the knife downward will result in the knife's blade releasing and locking into place.
Exception: The following type of knife does not generally meet the definition of prohibited weapon, and therefore it is not within the purview of TI 9898.00.00. The misuse of this knife may nonetheless be punishable under other laws.

22. Torsion bar assisted-opening knives (folding knife, speed-safe knife, spring-assisted knife) Folding knives that use an internal "torsion bar" to assist in opening them with one hand. The heart of this opening system is the torsion bar in the handle of the knife. In order to open the knife, the user must apply manual pressure to a thumb stud or other protrusion on the blade, thereby overcoming the resistance of the torsion bar. After the blade is moved partially out of the handle by this manual pressure, the torsion bar takes over.

23. In some cases, torsion bar assisted-opening knives can be opened automatically by gravity or centrifugal force. If this is the case, these knives would fall within the definition of prohibited weapon, and be prohibited under TI 9898.00.00 unless an exemption in that tariff item applies.

Leon. · Jun 19, 2016

Danke42 said:
So just to be clear. The past ruling we were all using as a reference was this Importing and Exporting Firearms, Weapons and Devices Memorandum D19-13-2

http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/publications/dm-md/d19/d19-13-2-eng.html#a4x2

With this particular reference regarding assisted opening knives being excepted as a prohibited device.

Only if they actually followed this...
they don't...they interpret each case as they wish...
take a look at
http://www.citt.gc.ca/en/node/7447
They claim:

D-Memoranda are administrative policy statements issued by the CBSA. While these memoranda often set out the CBSAs interpretation of the law, it is the Tribunals responsibility to interpret and apply the relevant law in each appeal that comes before it. The Tribunals task in this case is therefore strictly to determine whether the goods in issue fit the definition of prohibited weapon in the Criminal Code, regardless of the contents of the CBSAs D-Memorandum.

Danke42 · Jun 20, 2016

Leon. said:
Only if they actually followed this...
they don't...they interpret each case as they wish...
take a look at
http://www.citt.gc.ca/en/node/7447
They claim:

Yeah I posted that back in May. It would be great if they subscribed to a different ethos other than "the house always wins".

Steely Dan · Jun 20, 2016

Well I finally talked to Canada Border Services: Prohibited Importations Unit. The guy was actually pretty friendly. According to him there have been no official changes to Canadian knife laws since 1998!? He told me my knife has not been examined yet. He also asked of it was Spring assisted, A flipper or if it had holes to slip your fingers through, I told him it did not. He said the only possible reason for it to be seized would be the centrifugal force issue. Now I wait for it to be tested since they are swamped. I hope the pivot is snug enough to withstand their tests. We shall see.:grumpy:

Leon. · Jun 20, 2016

Steely Dan said:
Well I finally talked to Canada Border Services: Prohibited Importations Unit. The guy was actually pretty friendly. According to him there have been no official changes to Canadian knife laws since 1998!? He told me my knife has not been examined yet. He also asked of it was Spring assisted, A flipper or if it had holes to slip your fingers through, I told him it did not. He said the only possible reason for it to be seized would be the centrifugal force issue. Now I wait for it to be tested since they are swamped. I hope the pivot is snug enough to withstand their tests. We shall see.:grumpy:

If you bought it from a dealer, they usually do tighten up the pivot before shipping to Canada. If it's from a BF member, maybe it will fail the test...
Good luck! Keep us updated!

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk

Steely Dan · Jun 20, 2016

Leon. said:
If you bought it from a dealer, they usually do tighten up the pivot before shipping to Canada. If it's from a BF member, maybe it will fail the test...
Good luck! Keep us updated!

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk

Thanks Leon (no women, no kids!) They were nice about things, he told me someone on the first line of border services saw it declared as ''Outdoor Sports'' and chucked it in the bin of items for inspection. I made sure the agent knew I wouldn't order a switchblade or Bali to my home knowing it was illegal. It is a new knife and most folders without a bearing system seem to take a lot of opening and closing to break in, so fingers crossed!