Cannitlers, whittlers...stupid question.

I'll keep taking pictures. Someday one will help. ;)

The Hen and Rooster catch bit. you can see how the end of the bit hooks around the springs. I've never noticed it moving, though.

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The tapered center liner or cut liner, is held at two points, the pivot of the two small blades and the cener pin. If the liner works its way up to where it could cut your palm, it has already broken.

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Here you can see why the center liner has to be cut. Note the shadow of the blade on the liner.

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Sorry I was giving a opinion that was not factual. My apologizes...
 
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I was giving out my opinion, that wasn't factual. My apoligies...
 
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I'm sorry, are we arguing? I hadn't noticed, I thought we were discussing. :o

The only reason I have been calling it a liner is because that is what I've heard the parts between the springs called for the last fifty years. Feel free to call it a divider if you wish, I will know what you mean. As far as the cantilevered end of the divider working up, the only way I can see that happening is if the piece cracked at the hole where the center pin holds it, allowing the free end to move upward.

I was using the Case splitback for these pictures because the divider is shorter, sits higher and is easier to see and photograph than the one on my Queen. That one extends to just past the beginning of the bolster, is 0.008" thick at the end and sits slightly below the backsprings with the blade open or closed. If that piece was thinned down to 0.002" (less than the thickness of a sheet of paper), it would fold or break very easily. I don't think brass is strong enough to be used that thin. Even steel would be pretty chancey.
 
I think what would really help is if a maker has a photo of all the parts before the knife is assembled. That would aid in understanding, particularly if someone has the parts from a split-back whittler. I'm not taking mine apart though!
 
D. Parker, I was referring to Yablanowitz' pictures of the hen and Rooster, and the Parker knife. For some reason I couldn't visualize how the catch bit wrapped around the bolster end, but now it's quite clear.
I've seen a number of tapered dividers that were cut to an extremely thin point, with no breakage or slippage beyond the liners. I would think that the only way this could happen in most cases is that the holes, either at the pivot or the spring center, were cut much larger than the pin, allowing for slippage. I have seen what you are referring to though, very easy to tear your palm on one of those.

Eric
 
I was giving out opinions that were not factual. My apoligies...
 
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On old whittlers with tapered cut center spacer THINGIES, if they were made too thin(less than .010")and/or out of too soft of material, the friction of the springs going up and down over time will cause the center THINGY to lift up by bending. Correctly made knives won't do that.

Also, if a spring ends up coming to rest on a catch bit, the catch bit is made wrong. If you think about it, a catch bit that stops a spring would cause the blade to rattle losely in the open or closed position.
 
I was giving out opinions that were not factual. My apologies...
 
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d.parker said:
OK Kerry here we go again. The catch bit lays on the bottom of the spring (s) in the blade(s) closed position and open position with a cam or rounded end tang as I call them. Also the catch bit lays against the end of the spring(s) It is a very close fit, the catch bit does not interfere with the spring action, if this were not true the catch bit would rock back and forth on the pivot pin. If that is not the case the catch bit is not made correctly. On a half stop blade tang, the catch bit rest on the bottom of the spring(s) and on the end of the back spring(s) in all three positions closed, half and open if not it will rock back and forth on the pivot and will become more loose with use..

The first part of your statement is correct in IMHO... about the thinggy....
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The tolerances are indeed very close on whittlers for them to work correctly. That's why I think they are some of the most impressive pocket knives ever made.
 
I was giving out opinions that were not factual. My apolgies...
 
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Heck, I've been tryin' for years to figure out what that piece of brass in the middle of a stockman was lining. ;) The other two line the inside of the scales and bolsters, so I understand them being called liners, but the spacer down the center was always called a liner, too. After puzzlng over it for thirty years or so, I gave up and decided to just go with the flow. :D

I'm no knifemaker, and I'm not an engineer either, but I've worked with enough brass shim stock over the years to know that taking it down much below 0.010" is a bad idea unless it is clamped firmly in place. At 0.002", pocket lint could bend it, much less the friction of springs clamping it from both sides. A stray drop of water on the springs causing a tiny bit of rust would be all it would take to cause a problem. I guess I have a hard time understanding why anyone would build one with the spacer that thin.

Sitting here playing with a couple of the knives from my pictures I find that I can move the catch bit quite a bit with the blades part open to cam the springs out. They snap right back into place when the springs do. Pretty cool.

I still carry a stockman, but I usually have a whittler with it, if nothing else to admire the craftsmanship that goes into it.
 
DP is correct, if you make that tapered cut liner, which is what I call it, less than .010 it will work up out of there and cut you. It bends from the friction. I started making them out of a harder material to solve this problem.

Regarding the catch bit, it doesn't touch the spring anywhere. It's close but it doesn't touch. If it did it would take the load of the spring and not let the blade work properly. There should be a little room under it to allow for wear on the tang. They will move a little sometimes, to solve this problem I put a dead pin in it if it's beside a blade. If it's between 2 blades theres not much you can do. If you put a bushing in the blades they will lock it in place.
 
Great thread. (Especially since whittlers are one of my favorite patterns.)
Now I feel worse for the makers of some of the ones I have. The more I think about them they sure offer a lot of challenges to get right.
 
I'd just like to say thanks to yablanowitz for the pics! I recently traded away my only whittlers, so to follow this discussion, those pics were a great help. :)

Interesting topic, indeed.

G.
 
Tony Bose said:
DP is correct, if you make that tapered cut liner, which is what I call it, less than .010 it will work up out of there and cut you. It bends from the friction. I started making them out of a harder material to solve this problem.

Regarding the catch bit, it doesn't touch the spring anywhere. It's close but it doesn't touch. If it did it would take the load of the spring and not let the blade work properly. There should be a little room under it to allow for wear on the tang. They will move a little sometimes, to solve this problem I put a dead pin in it if it's beside a blade. If it's between 2 blades theres not much you can do. If you put a bushing in the blades they will lock it in place.
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Thanks Tony on your procedure on building your catch bits. Very informative. I have never built a catch bit for a knife. I have 4 tapered back spring whittler knives, all are built closely similar. In the rear blades closed position and the main blade full open, the catch bit end is touching the walk (bottom) of the back springs. There is gap at the end of the back springs and the catch bit, that measures .002". In the half stop position of one of the back blades, the catch bit touches the end of the springs, with both back blades open the same is true. Looking in the trough of the knife you can see the catch bit and measuring the gap between the catch bit and back spring is the same .002" With all 3 blades in the closed position, the gap between the catch bit and end of back springs is again at .002". I don't know if this arrangement is right or wrong. All the knives work well there is no spring binding or loose blades in any position. This is just my observation of the tapered spring whittlers I have, and was what I was basing my information on that I was posting about catch bits.. Sorry if it's wrong information...
 
raydbonz said:
I think what would really help is if a maker has a photo of all the parts before the knife is assembled. That would aid in understanding, particularly if someone has the parts from a split-back whittler. I'm not taking mine apart though!
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I am in the process of building two splitback whittlers as I type this. If its ok with the mod's, I would be happy to post a few pictures of the build. (both knives are spoken for) If not, I understand,its not my intention to turn this thread into a WIP (work in progress)

Ken
 
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Ken, feel free... This thread has been a great source of information for the forum.
 
What Elliott said. ;) I would love to see work in progress threads here on orders.
 
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