Can't form burr or get good edge with Sharpmaker

I had already done about 700 strokes on one side with the medium stone before you posted. I just now stropped it and it is slightly better, but still won't slice cut from the edge or push cut. So you are saying go back to getting another burr with the diamond stone?
 
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postoak said:
I had already done about 700 strokes on one side with the medium stone before you posted. I just now stropped it and it is slightly better, but still won't slice cut from the edge or push cut. So you are saying go back to getting another burr with the diamond stone?
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That's what I'd do. Until a full-length burr is formed on the first step, any attempts at refining on following steps won't likely do much good, if any at all. It'll be even harder to form a burr and refine the edge working only from the ceramics, if that's not yet done from the first step. Focus on getting the edge as sharp as you can in the first stage; burr the edge, flip the burr to the other side, then reduce the burr as much as possible on that first stage.

At this point, if it were me, I'd not even touch any other hones/stones until it's cutting well from the diamond hone. If that's done, the following refining stages should be a breeze by comparison. That's actually what the Sharpmaker is designed to do when just the ceramic hones are used; it's more a refining tool than a complete edge-rebuilding tool, at least without the diamond rods (or CBN).


David
 
I'm an amateur so take this for what it's worth.

I recently got a sharpmaker and began sharpening everything in sight. The ones that were already sharp were very easy following the instructions. I stumbled across jdavis video as well and adopted it when I got my diamond rods. I had a heck of a time on one knife getting a burr. I found it was less about going fast and more about making sure the blade is touching every part of the stone (using the flat side of stone). Also I couldn't find a burr. Being new this isn't surprising as I haven't developed great senses of touch with my fingers for these types of things. Tonight by accident I discovered the trick. Instead of feeing with your hand use a microfiber cloth. Run the knife along it, same angle as you would strop. Maybe a little more shallow. It will catch ever so slightly if there is a burr. I couldn't find a burr when I was reprofiling a kitchen knife. Using this method I discovered it was there I just couldn't feel it. If I flipped the knife half over and ran it on the cloth it went smooth with no resistance. Hope this helps.
 
Thanks for that tip!

I already had a very definitely burr on both sides and I'm getting a little discouraged.
 
postoak said:
Thanks for that tip!

I already had a very definitely burr on both sides and I'm getting a little discouraged.
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If that's the case, it sounds like most of it comes down to lightening the touch after that burr is formed, and using that lighter touch to gently reduce the burr without degrading the edge; might still be having some trouble with that aspect, which may be why you're not seeing cutting performance improve much after forming the burr. If properly done so, you should start to notice much better cutting performance off that first stage. If that's the main obstacle right now, you might be closer than you think. Hang in there...


David
 
I'm discouraged because I've got such a wide bevel and to remove metal at the edge I have to remove all that bevel as well and rough it all up again. That's why I've been thinking about switching to 40 degrees. What do you think?
 
postoak said:
I'm discouraged because I've got such a wide bevel and to remove metal at the edge I have to remove all that bevel as well. That's why I've been thinking about switching to 40 degrees. What do you think?
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Try some very, very light passes on the diamond at 40°. If the 30° edge was very close to being apexed, or even fully so but just heavily burred, a very gently-applied 40° microbevel might change (improve) cutting noticeably; some will do this to cut burrs off the edge. Just make sure to do it very, very (very) lightly, so you won't face the same issues at the wider angle. If done too heavily, there's a greater risk of rolling the edge or burring it more severely.


David
 
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OP,

I'm giving you big thumbup on your work. It took me 3 weekends to reprofile my Endura Sabre Ground. You did this in one sitting! Keep it up, if you're consistent, you'll get there.

Going lighter on diamonds can't be emphasized enough. I think David said once, 'if it feels too light, it's right'
 
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Well after a night's sleep to recharge my batteries. I decided to push on at 30°. I don't seem to have any micro-fiber cloths so can't check for a burr that way -- I need to buy one for future use just for that.

Now that I am going lightly with the diamond rod, I notice that it is pretty easy to slightly misalign from vertical on your strokes. With only the slightest change, I can go from only touching about 1/64" of the edge, to the entire bevel, wide as it is*. I have developed this technique of visually checking the horizontal distance between the rod and the spine of the knife before beginning the stroke. We'll see how this goes at developing a burr.

*I'm using a Sharpie again to tell where the rod is touching the blade.
 
While I have some experts attention here, after I am finished with the edge, how do I go about removing scratches from the side of the blade?
 
postoak said:
Well after a night's sleep to recharge my batteries. I decided to push on at 30°. I don't seem to have any micro-fiber cloths so can't check for a burr that way -- I need to buy one for future use just for that.

Now that I am going lightly with the diamond rod, I notice that it is pretty easy to slightly misalign from vertical on your strokes. With only the slightest change, I can go from only touching about 1/64" of the edge, to the entire bevel, wide as it is*. I have developed this technique of visually checking the horizontal distance between the rod and the spine of the knife before beginning the stroke. We'll see how this goes at developing a burr.

*I'm using a Sharpie again to tell where the rod is touching the blade.
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Aside from using the microfiber towels to find burrs on the edge, the same can be done with a wet/damp paper towel, or tissues (Kleenex, etc). Sometimes, just 'stropping' on the thigh of your jeans will grab a lot of fibers from the denim, and they'll hang up on a burred edge. I've also found, in wiping Sharpie ink from the bevels with a Q-tip moistened with alcohol, the cotton fibers on the Q-tip will also come off and cling to burrs on the edge. Lots of ways to 'see' burrs this way.

Keep at it. You'll get there. :thumbup:


David
 
postoak said:
While I have some experts attention here, after I am finished with the edge, how do I go about removing scratches from the side of the blade?
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There are lots of ways... easiest I've found on most knives is to wet sand it with sandpaper in the 400-600 range... Going the direction of the length (basically parallel to the spine).

Lookin good!
 
I wonder if why some people are better at sharpening than others is fine motor skills. As I said, even going slowly with the Sharpmaker, I am NOT completely consistent. As I said, I can vary between hitting the entire primary bevel (which on this side is about 1/4" wide) and coming within about 1/100th" of the edge. I just now tried a few passes with the 40 degree diamond rod and it was hitting about half that width of the edge. It was also beginning to produce a burr, I think.

So, if I slop around that much with the Sharpmaker, I'm always going to produce sub-optimal results compared to someone with a more steady hand. If I keep on at 30 degrees, I will just slop around too much to get the desired results. Perhaps the answer IS to make a few strokes at 40 degrees to get the burr and then switch to the other side. Thoughts?
 
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postoak said:
I wonder if why some people are better at sharpening than others is fine motor skills. As I said, even going slowly with the Sharpmaker, I am NOT completely consistent. As I said, I can vary being between hitting the entire primary bevel (which on this side is about 1/4" wide) and coming within about 1/100th" of the edge. I just now tried a few passes with the 40 degree diamond rod and it was hitting about half that width of the edge. It was also beginning to produce a burr, I think.

So, if I slop around that much with the Sharpmaker, I'm always going to produce sub-optimal results compared to someone with a more steady hand. If I keep on at 30 degrees, I will just slop around too much to get the desired results. Perhaps the answer IS to make a few strokes at 40 degrees to get the burr and then switch to the other side. Thoughts?
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Some of it is fine motor skill. A great deal of it for me is the development of tactile awareness of where you are on the edge based on how it feels going across the abrasive. The task is too demanding really for a visual approach only - by the time you need to make corrections the moment is passed. Only going by feel can you make real time corrections.

Don't get me wrong, it helps to have fine motor skill, muscle memory etc, especially when resetting a bevel to different angle by hand. The instant there's any sort of bevel or clean edge to reference it gets a lot more reliable (for me) to make corrections based on feel. With practice is possible to feel the angle, feel when the burr is forming/edge has been apexed, feel when the bur is mostly gone. If you aren't looking for it, much or all of that tactile sensation can be completely overlooked but it is incredibly useful to correlate feel with edge contact in addition to visual referencing and inspection.
 
Okay, I was able to get a burr on both sides at 40° relatively quickly (maybe 200 light strokes on the diamond rods), so I guess this thread is about done. Thanks everyone for you input and insights!

If I have more questions about the Sharpmaker, I'll do searches for other peoples' experiences.
 
HeavyHanded said:
Some of it is fine motor skill. A great deal of it for me is the development of tactile awareness of where you are on the edge based on how it feels going across the abrasive. The task is too demanding really for a visual approach only - by the time you need to make corrections the moment is passed. Only going by feel can you make real time corrections.

Don't get me wrong, it helps to have fine motor skill, muscle memory etc, especially when resetting a bevel to different angle by hand. The instant there's any sort of bevel or clean edge to reference it gets a lot more reliable (for me) to make corrections based on feel. With practice is possible to feel the angle, feel when the burr is forming/edge has been apexed, feel when the bur is mostly gone. If you aren't looking for it, much or all of that tactile sensation can be completely overlooked but it is incredibly useful to correlate feel with edge contact in addition to visual referencing and inspection.
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+1 :thumbup:
That's what it's come down to for me (finally, after a long time); after enough repetition and conscious, deliberate focus on feedback from the bevels, the hone & edge contact, there'll be an 'epiphany' moment where you realize what's happening almost intuitively, based on what you're feeling via your fingertips. It becomes much less of an issue of watching for the correct angle hold, and instead more about noticing changes in the feel of the contact and adjusting automatically to keep the bevels flush to the hone.

I can't emphasize enough the importance of repetition (staying with it, in other words) to give the hands & fingers time to develop that feel and muscle memory. The hands will 'learn' the good habits with repetition, whether the brain is consciously aware of it or not. The smooth or 'slick' feel of the bevels in flush contact on the hone will contrast with the rough, scraping feel when either the apex or shoulders of the bevels are digging too hard into the hone. If you focus on feeling for those differences long enough, you'll begin reacting and adjusting automatically to maintain that 'smooth' or 'slick' contact with bevels. Combined with developing a lighter touch as you begin to recognize those feedback signals, the results at the edge will begin to improve, sometimes dramatically. A lighter touch will also enhance that feedback to the fingertips, BTW. At least for me, a too-heavy touch tends to suppress or numb the feeling coming back from the contact, so it's counterproductive to grip the knife too hard or press too hard into the hone.


David
 
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Well, I wish we could see a close-up of your drawing. It looks like museum-class stuff to me.

I wound up with the knife sharper -- but not where it should be. It will sometimes slice-cut newspaper when the side of the paper is held vertical and a shallow slice angle is made. It wouldn't do that before. It won't come close to cutting hair. It is, of course, more than sharp enough for field dressing a deer.
 
To learn more about feel, visit HeavyHanded website. He has some drawings and videos that can help with pointers.

After years of sharpening, asking questions here and reading/warching, finally I start (and still learning) to feel when bevel is flush and apex formed, burr got ground off, etc. that's the actual thing happening that gives exact feedback.

Keep at it :thumbup:
 
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