Carbon vs. Stainless...The Debate Rages On...(for buckgen5)

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Blues

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Okay, our new member buckgen5 posted the following in another thread upon reading which I invited him to open a new thread rather than sidetrack the other.

So, I figured I'd just go one step further and open the thread on his behalf and let you all post the pros and cons as you see them.
(Might give us a much needed break from the never ending Chinese slipjoint debate. :rolleyes:)

Only rules are to keep to the subject matter and keep it civil.

Here's the essence of buckgen5's earlier quote:

i feel all that matters when it comes to a knife being good or not is dependent on the construction and materials used. i'm not going to say there is anything wrong with a case knife, in fact i am quite fond of them but, as far as good construction and materials goes for a slipjoint knife it needs blades all made of carbon steel which is well known for it's edge retention...(the applications for stainless is corrosion resistance use for surgical reasons and to be used on food), carbon steel back springs (because stainless loses its springiness), good handle material that is less apt to dry out and crack with age and use, strong pins (most use brass or nickel anyhow which isn't that strong for heavy use), a tight fit with no gaps, and brass bushings, washers, or liners, whatever you want to call them. with all these ingredient it makes a good knife no matter what the name is on it. i have found case knives, buck, schrade, camillus, boker, and other such brands all to produce knives of this quality. my personal opinion is that stainless is about worthless when it comes to the longevity of a knife. with carbon steel you can lubricate the steel to prevent cancerous rust but, there is nothing you can do to prevent stainless backsprings from losing their tension.

So, let's hear your point of view...
 
I wasn't aware of stainless steels losing their spring tension as a big issue. Is that still occurring with modern stainless steels? Hasn't Buck been making predominantly stainless slipjoints for 40 years now?

As the ideal traditional knife for collectors and traditional knife lovers it seems that carbon is the preferred choice.

From a pure - average user - standpoint I'm not sure it makes that much 'practical' difference. When I say average user I don't mean enthusiast.
adam
 
Ah, the old dilemma - "Carbon or stainless?" To be honest I don't think there is a right answer either way as both have their place. I like carbon steel on production slipjoints. This applies to both the blade and the backsprings, I guess I like patina on old-timey knives. Plus I think that it's easier for the knife companies to get a good heat treat on carbon blades than with stainless.

When it comes to custom knives though, I prefer stainless of the high end variety. ATS-34, CPM154, 440V, etc. Custom knives are as much jewelry as they are tools and stainless tends to maintain its looks better. I don't know about backspring longevity when it comes to stainless, but I guess I'll find out in a few decades. The thing is, carbon has its weaknesses too. It's a pain trying to clean a carbon backspring and if you're not careful corrosion can take place.

Blues said:
i feel all that matters when it comes to a knife being good or not is dependent on the construction and materials used. i'm not going to say there is anything wrong with a case knife, in fact i am quite fond of them but, as far as good construction and materials goes for a slipjoint knife it needs blades all made of carbon steel which is well known for it's edge retention...(the applications for stainless is corrosion resistance use for surgical reasons and to be used on food), carbon steel back springs (because stainless loses its springiness), good handle material that is less apt to dry out and crack with age and use, strong pins (most use brass or nickel anyhow which isn't that strong for heavy use), a tight fit with no gaps, and brass bushings, washers, or liners, whatever you want to call them. with all these ingredient it makes a good knife no matter what the name is on it. i have found case knives, buck, schrade, camillus, boker, and other such brands all to produce knives of this quality. my personal opinion is that stainless is about worthless when it comes to the longevity of a knife. with carbon steel you can lubricate the steel to prevent cancerous rust but, there is nothing you can do to prevent stainless backsprings from losing their tension.
Click to expand...

This is where I'll have to disagree with you. The best materials IMO all have the potential to dry out and crack with age. I'm talking about stag, jigged bone, and ivory. The beauty of these materials far outweighs the small amount of maintenance you might have to do. You can keep your delrin handled knives, I'm fine with oiling mine up a couple of times a year.

- Christian
 
Get that Bose guy on the phone right now! I think there's a stainless back spring in one of his knives!!!

OK, had to say that. Seriously though, I am looking forward to hearing what some of the knowledgeable members here have to say about this topic.
 
Wow.

There's two side to every coin, and it's possable to be half right on somethings. I like carbon. My favorite pocket knives are some of the Case CV.

But...

My all time long term pocket knife that has stood up to decades of so called "hard use" as they like to call it, is my old Buck stockman with stainless blades, and stainless springs. It went from 1967 to the early 90's, and still gets carried and used now and then. There's stainless, and then there's stainless. Don't paint with too wide a brush, you'll miss out on some fine knives. Yes there is some junk stainless steel out there. But since the 1940's when stainless had a less than stainless reputation, there's been a whole world of improvement in steels. To make a blanket statement that stainless is worthless for longevity is just plain error. I think the longevity of some Buck 110's out there that have stood up to a lifetime of abuse, is proof enough that stainless is far from worthless. If it was, then the sak as made by Victorinox would not have a long reputation for a quality tool. I have a few old sak's around that are over 20 years old, and they are still functioning just like the day I bought them. This includes springs.

A cheap product is just that, a cheap product. But a well made product is good no matter what it's made of.

Carl.
 
(let me know where to send the cigar, Carl...now back to our regularly scheduled program...;))
 
If the majority of knife users/collectors (not just the ones in these forums) wanted knives to be made on non-stainless steels the major knife companies would produce mainly non-stainless steeled knives. That just isn't the case. Personally, I prefer non-stainless in a production built pocket knife.
Greg
 
If from from a custom maker I would want stainless, or the close to stainless D2. If from a production company that doesn't offer a good stainless I'll go with carbon.

There's always exceptions, such as the Bose/Case collabs with 154cm. I would take it over there CV on a high end knife.
 
No product is ever any better than the sum of it parts, and how crafted together.

It is my understanding, besides steel, we have heat treat and blade geometry to factor in, when determining what is "best". Any one of these three factors, can, and does affect how the "blade" turns out. The best example is having good steel, with a good blade geometry, but having a poor heat treat. It does not matter if the steel is carbon/tool steel, or one of many "stainless" steels. Mess up the heat treat, and the knife will not perform.

Best for what?
One has to consider the environment when making "equipment" choices, such as knives.

Personally, I am in the carbon/tool steel camp. I like Case CV, for example. Another I like is 01 tool steel.

That said, I do appreciate a Victorinox Swiss Army Knife, and the steel they use.
Why?
Well the darn things are affordable, they are sharp out of the box, and have (sad to say) better fit and finish than many knives costing more. I don't worry about one kept in a emergency kit, office desk, first aid kit, glove box, etc. These are easy to sharpen and I don't worry too much about them, in wet, even salt water settings. For one, I will wipe down and oil, but then again, for the price, and all, I don't worry about it.

Sometimes I wonder if we are "progressing" forwards or backwards.

There was a time, folks got a knife, and used it for a lifetime, unless they lost it and had to replace it. Granted most were carbon/tool steel, but some "stainless" were in this mix too.
Folks knew about "tools" and how to use "tools for task" and how to maintain these tools.

Then somewhere we "progressed" to having to have the Holy Grail of tools, that would magically take care of tasks all by themselves.

Perhaps it is just me, and how raised, still seeking Holy Grails never gets those seeking, "rich" , instead the folks selling the notions, information, stories and stuff to go looking for Holy Grails.

i.e Fishing.
Ninety percent of fishing stuff out there is not to actually catch fish, instead fisher person's wallets.

Not that knife folks would actually come up with debates, and arguments, and new steels, and so forth just to sell knives.
Nah, knife folks would not do that...
*wink*
 
I like both stainless and carbon, and obviously there is room for both in today's market. My Cases are about 85% stainless, 15% carbon. Pattern, scales, and build quality are more important to me than what type of steel is being used.

If everything else is equal, and I'm given the choice, I'll usually choose stainless, because it's easier to maintain. I'd be happy as a clam if I could get 154CM for everything. I do like carbon on older knives though.
 
Well,I personally,carry & use customs,in stainless.
I own & admire production slipjoints,but to me,these,in both ss & carbon,as far as edge retention,are if any,"worthless",as stated,compared to the edge holding ability to what I use.The Rc is not the same,the cutting performance,to the stuff I carry & use,well,there is no comparison.

Now as far as ss losing its springiness,well I have not heard of this.I did however,hear,of situations where some ss (springs),can actually become stiffer,more springier (This,what I am stating,may come in play more with customs)

I know of one professional woodcarver (member here),who has tested production,ss & carbon slipjoints,carving wood & he resharpens frequently.He told me there is not much difference in the two.

Recently I took out,on a boat,in a saltwater enviornment,a D2 Queen,not 100% ss . I fillet'd one single baitfish,wiped the blade clean with a clean dry rag. Now at home,I put it away & spy the black "pits" on that blade,maybe just spots,not rust.Either way,at its price,IMO,I'd like for it to stay looking decent.To me,that is part of the knife's life span & holding up.
But,IMO,it is a $100 knife,approx.,so you mean to say,ss has no place,it's "worthless" ?? I disagree
I think ss has its place . I think most,are not going to work it (the knife) out hard enough,for it (cabon vs ss)to really make a difference.
And,if you do,well than,you already know,you need to take some sort of field sharpener with you,'cause at thier (productions) Rc,it will be necessary to resharpen,in the field,regardless of ss or carbon.

I have a Schatt ss moose type knife,the other day I went to use/carry it & it was in a display box I noticed the spring snapped & popped off. This is an un used knife. I wonder if that ss spring snapped & broke,in storage,because it was "losing it's springiness"

If you can sort out what I wrote,you may agree
-Vince
 
i actually have a few older bucks but, i don't think they are 40 plus years or anything. the blades are stainless yes but, the back springs are not. i have also seen this on some sears knives i have had. i will say they are not so attractive in that the steels don't match but, the function if the knife is taken care of will probably last more than another lifetime. these are issues that concern me because i intend to use all the knives in my collection as well as pass them on to my son when i die. to me they are heirlooms but, each and every one can tell a story which adds to the sentimental value. i have had other knive enthusiasts/collectors/users show me their old stainless backspringed knives that have lost tension to the degree that the blade prctically falls open. it breaks my heart. i don't know if the stainless we are using now is any better than old stainless or not. maybe you could enlighten on the matter?
 
kamagong said:
Ah, the old dilemma - "Carbon or stainless?" To be honest I don't think there is a right answer either way as both have their place. I like carbon steel on production slipjoints. This applies to both the blade and the backsprings, I guess I like patina on old-timey knives. Plus I think that it's easier for the knife companies to get a good heat treat on carbon blades than with stainless.

When it comes to custom knives though, I prefer stainless of the high end variety. ATS-34, CPM154, 440V, etc. Custom knives are as much jewelry as they are tools and stainless tends to maintain its looks better. I don't know about backspring longevity when it comes to stainless, but I guess I'll find out in a few decades. The thing is, carbon has its weaknesses too. It's a pain trying to clean a carbon backspring and if you're not careful corrosion can take place.



This is where I'll have to disagree with you. The best materials IMO all have the potential to dry out and crack with age. I'm talking about stag, jigged bone, and ivory. The beauty of these materials far outweighs the small amount of maintenance you might have to do. You can keep your delrin handled knives, I'm fine with oiling mine up a couple of times a year.

- Christian
Click to expand...
what in your opinion is a good oil for these type of scales? i usually use vegetable or some kind of cooking oil(anything petroleum free).
 
I like carbon due to ease of sharpening and edge retention compared to a lot of stainless used in production slipjoints, but it is a PITA to maintain. I have come to the conclusion with a carbon knife it is either a looker or an EDC. Impossible to due both.

It would also be nice to see companies use some of the modern stainless steels that are fineblankable, like Sandvik's. This would give you ease of sharpening, edge retention, corrosion resistance and affordable costs in a traditional slipjoint. I really liked the Dan Burke Winterbottom line by Queen and hoped they would expand their use of the steel. Does anyone have any clue why they did not?
 
In my usage I'd say the tool steels have the best edge holding. As long as you have a modern diamond hone or two, any of them can be gotten razor sharp without too much trouble, and I don't use any gadgets or aligners either, just freehand. I have used D2 and O1, and think highly of both. I just got a Koster M.U.C.K. in CPM-3V @ 60-61 HRc, which the numbers say just might be the best all-around knife steel out there, for edge holding, toughness, etc. After deer season I will have a better idea if this holds true for me or not. ;)

Simple carbon steels and stainless steels seem to be a little behind the tool steels, but are perfectly adequate for EDC slippies. BG-42, S30V and ATS-34 are all very good in my experience, as are 1095, Case CV and 5160 (my most used stainless and carbon steels). I really like and agree with Dennis Strickland when he says he likes the feel of 1095 against the stone. Even quality stainless at around 58-59 HRc feels somehow "squishy" when sharpened. Maybe it's those large, chromium carbides rolling around. :p

For an EDC pocket slippy, I would have to say D2, followed by 1095 or ATS-34 does me good every day of the week. :thumbup:
 
Hi,

I tend to be a plain carbon steel guy. I much prefer it over stainless. Not because I believe that stainless is inferior, I don't. But because plain high carbon steel works the way I want a knife blade to work. It sharpens, cuts and holds an edge in a manor I like.

I honestly don't think it takes a very fancy steel to make a good slip-joint. Heck, we seldom use our knives very hard. The stainless blades I have are almost all 420HC or 440A. From Rough Riders to Buck to Case. And I get good service from them all. Still, personal prejudice colors my view of them. It's hard to over come sometimes.

With modern heat treatments and manufacturing methods, I don't think there is really much difference to be concerned with anymore.

Dale
 
buckgen5 said:
what in your opinion is a good oil for these type of scales? i usually use vegetable or some kind of cooking oil(anything petroleum free).
Click to expand...

As Andy mentioned, mineral oil works well and you don't need to worry about it becoming rancid at some point. (Ren Wax is great too but pricey.)
 
Personally I am not a huge fan of carbon or patina. I much prefer stainless.

As for modern stainless backsprings going soft.........In 25 years of collecting knives have never experienced that.
 
i will rephrase about stainless being worthless. more what i meant to say is that aside from surgical applications and food related purposes there really isn't much call for stainless steel. those are not things that i personally use knives for on a regular basis. stainless unless you get into more exotic steels is softer per the chromium content which does lose its tension. i have a lot of stainless blades that are fine though i feel non stainless is more suitable for the applications i would use it for. backsprings of non stainless and stainless blades in my opinion is a pretty good combination.
 
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