Carbon vs. Stainless...The Debate Rages On...(for buckgen5)

[waynorth]

I have old stainless Queen knives, that appear to have stainless springs, and the springs snap just fine. Some are 50 years old.
I have some of the rare stainless Schrade knives from the 1920s-1930s and they are more than fine also, at 80 to 90 years old! I have more carbon steel knives that have lost their spring, thankfully not too many! This is a sample from about 2500 knives, so it's a significant test IMO.
It ain't the meat, it's the motion!!
Properly formulated and treated steel is what is needed, no matter what is used.

 

[Steven65]

stainless unless you get into more exotic steels is softer per the chromium content which does lose its tension.

What stainless knife steel have you personally found to loose it's tension?

What do you consider "exotic steels"?

 

[buckgen5]

Personally I am not a huge fan of carbon or patina. I much prefer stainless.

As for modern stainless backsprings going soft.........In 25 years of collecting knives have never experienced that.

i will state that the only ones i know of were knives owned by other people. i don't know how they abused their knives and such. so maybe it is not a common problem with the backspring losing tension. for all i know he could've taken a hammer to it or something. i do know that i have not had an issue of this personally in the 20 years i have been collecting and sharpening knives.

 

[kamagong]

Mineral oil seems to work really well. :thumbup:

I agree. I tried olive oil a long time ago, but it gets gummy and goes rancid over time. I switched to mineral oil and haven't looked back. It works on stag, ivory, bone, and is food safe to use on blades as well. You can pick it up at any pharmacy and a bottle lasts a long time.

- Christian

 

[VCM3]

i actually have a few older bucks but, i don't think they are 40 plus years or anything. the blades are stainless yes but, the back springs are not. i have also seen this on some sears knives i have had. i will say they are not so attractive in that the steels don't match but, the function if the knife is taken care of will probably last more than another lifetime. these are issues that concern me because i intend to use all the knives in my collection as well as pass them on to my son when i die. to me they are heirlooms but, each and every one can tell a story which adds to the sentimental value. i have had other knive enthusiasts/collectors/users show me their old stainless backspringed knives that have lost tension to the degree that the blade prctically falls open. it breaks my heart. i don't know if the stainless we are using now is any better than old stainless or not. maybe you could enlighten on the matter?

I am no expert on Buck knives
But I know for a fact,slipjoint springs,regardless of who built them,the springs have to be Rc'd less than the blade
This will result in that steel,to have different characters. SS with a less Rc hardness will be less corrosion resistant,so these knives you speak of,with the mixed steels (springs & blades),may be a case where you think its carbon,but just less corrosion resistant,due to the heat treating,the Rc hardness. You might be mistaken,on that.
-Vince

 

[buckgen5]

i'm not a hundred percent on what kind of knives i've seen do it. i think one of them might have been a keen cutter large barlow or something like that. i could be mistaken. i would consider 154 cm, vg-10, ats 34, aus 10, and zdp 189 to be exotic steels more or less.

 

[buckgen5]

i have a 301 and an uncle henry in front of me and both have blackish colored backsprings on them. maybe it's stainless but, just less stainless. i don't know for sure. it seems to be about the same color as the backspring on my 25 old timer which is definitely not stainless.

 

[Steven65]

my personal opinion is that stainless is about worthless when it comes to the longevity of a knife. with carbon steel you can lubricate the steel to prevent cancerous rust but, there is nothing you can do to prevent stainless backsprings from losing their tension.

i will state that the only ones i know of were knives owned by other people. i don't know how they abused their knives and such. so maybe it is not a common problem with the backspring losing tension. for all i know he could've taken a hammer to it or something. i do know that i have not had an issue of this personally in the 20 years i have been collecting and sharpening knives.

Interesting........So the essence of your post is that you like Carbon steel for knives and stainless steel is only good for food prep.
You heard somewhere, but have never personally experienced in 20 years of collecting and sharpening knives, that stainless steel backsprings loose their tension...........
Do I have that summation correct?

What is your point?

 

[buckgen5]

Interesting........So the essence of your post is that you like Carbon steel for knives and stainless steel is only good for food prep.
You heard somewhere, but have never personally experienced in 20 years of collecting and sharpening knives, that stainless steel backsprings loose their tension...........
Do I have that summation correct?

What is your point?

no you don't. i said i have personally seen other peoples knives that have done that ,but not that i have had this issue occur with any of my personal collection.

 

[Blues]

Interesting........So the essence of your post is that you like Carbon steel for knives and stainless steel is only good for food prep.
You heard somewhere, but have never personally experienced in 20 years of collecting and sharpening knives, that stainless steel backsprings loose their tension...........
Do I have that summation correct?

What is your point?

Easy big fella, easy...

(You gotta watch out when these South African sharks smell blood in the water. )

 

[VCM3]

i have a 301 and an uncle henry in front of me and both have blackish colored backsprings on them. maybe it's stainless but, just less stainless. i don't know for sure. it seems to be about the same color as the backspring on my 25 old timer which is definitely not stainless.

I'd bet, its similar steel,heat treated differently ,making springs (lower Rc) less corrosion resistant & Not,carbon springs/ss blade

 

[Steven65]

Easy big fella, easy...

Apologies Elliot.........I meant no offence.

 

[buckgen5]

i guess. no offense meant. i repair and sharpen knives for many people so i have seen a lot of strange things with knives. the least common of these being abuse. so i don't know like i said it may very well be just that, and i could be mistaken on the tension issue. one thing i find strange is that i always hear people say stainless is more expensive and that i can believe seeing as looking through catalogs and catalogs of knives the carbon steel ones always seem to be the most expensive. also another thing that arouses my curiosity is that the leaf springs on most vehicles were never made of stainless steel so if stainless is cheaper and can support tension so well then why is that?

 

[buckgen5]

I'd bet, its similar steel,heat treated differently ,making springs (lower Rc) less corrosion resistant & Not,carbon springs/ss blade

interesting. i'll buy that. i'm not totally clear on all the lingo but, is the discoloration on the back springs what everyone here calls "patina?" and it occurs on stainless?

 

[Blues]

Apologies Elliot.........I meant no offence.

Steven, you're my friend and I already knew that. (Just wanted to make sure that others did as well. )

 

[Dr Bill]

Personally, unless the blade is marked, I'm not smart enough to tell one type steel from another. I also don't use them hard enough to notice a difference in performance. Maybe if I were fast-roping from choppers and cutting barbed wire it would matter.

I think the quality of the heat treat and the blade geometry are way more important than how many atoms of carbon, vanadium, and chromium are present.

I do know from personal experience that titanium does not make a great backspring. And that stellite makes a good blade - and it's not even steel!

 

[Voltron]

... the leaf springs on most vehicles were never made of stainless steel so if stainless is cheaper and can support tension so well then why is that?

You'd probably have to ask a car maker about this.
Speaking on knives, speaking on real world use, and not theory, I find it safe to say my CV, Carbon, and Stainles teels perform about the same.
I am not cutting down a redwood with one.
I am not skinning a Whale.
I am not cutting through the side of a car door.
For day to day use (which is the vast majority of what knives handle), any material is good.
As has been said already, Stainless has improved so much over the years that performance issues between SS and CS is minimal at best.
As for the backsprings loosing tension? I have also seen more carbon steel lose tension then Stainless steel. However, to say one is better or worse then the other is wrong unless a test is done.
These knives that had those dead springs. Were they left halfway open for long periods of time on display?
Were they forced one way or the other?
Were they abused?
I'm not asking for an answer, just presenting the different posibilities for them to be dead, of which there are a ton of OTHER intangibles to consider.
Both Stainles and Carbon have their pros and cons. It is just about impossible to say which is "better" other then to take into consideration what the knife owner is using for. It's an individual choice really.
My SAK does exactly what my Case CV knife does. It also does the same as my D2 Queen does.
No different.
Real world use and experience counts for something, me thinks.

 

[Blues]

Guys, I don't want buckgen5 (as a newer member) to feel that he is being set upon too ruthlessly here.

While I didn't agree with the (more or less) sweeping statements, I just wanted to afford him the opportunity to present his case and hear some other points of view.

Not sure if we should continue with this or call for an armistice...?

 

[VCM3]

interesting. i'll buy that. i'm not totally clear on all the lingo but, is the discoloration on the back springs what everyone here calls "patina?" and it occurs on stainless?

Absolutely yes. It just happens differently on different steels
The blades & springs are heat treated They have a certain hardness (Rockwell ,Rc) That hardness will determine some characters of its performance

A stainless steel,noted for it's corrosion resistance,will not be as corrosion resistant,when it is heat treated to a lesser hardness than is stated/recommended by the steel Co. (for a blade)

With that said,there will be many cases where the springs take on discoloration & patina,differently & unlike the same blade/steel,that is heat treated harder on the blade

 

[VCM3]

Guys, I don't want buckgen5 (as a newer member) to feel that he is being set upon too ruthlessly here.

While I didn't agree with the (more or less) sweeping statements, I just wanted to afford him the opportunity to present his case and hear some other points of view.

Not sure if we should continue with this or call for an armistice...?

I think he needs the crash course & he needs to try some of the ss blades being put out by some makers here,or at least one. IMO,he won't look at his knives the same,ever again.
I think he has wasted too much time,at 20 yrs into it.

Just trying to help.
-Vince