Carothers Performance Knives, Use & Abuse

Status
Not open for further replies.
Alone said:
I've had the same thought on a number of occasions.

I'm very blessed to own a few of Nathan's D3V creations. If I remember correctly, the "Basic" SDFK was my first. To this day, it is still my FAVORITE. SRK and sheath (*Hell, I believe that Roland [* @ferider ] regularly carries one in his front pocket 😳). Likewise, it's pretty "no frills" when you look at it. It's kinda' "All Go, No Show" in its execution. Despite that,


View attachment 2712188
Click to expand...

My thoughts exactly, couldn’t have said it any better.
 
Alone said:
I've had the same thought on a number of occasions.

I'm very blessed to own a few of Nathan's D3V creations. If I remember correctly, the "Basic" SDFK was my first. To this day, it is still my FAVORITE.


For me, the SDFK is a bit of an enigma...

That particular knife and sheath combo is really hard to beat when it comes to the "big knife"/"small real estate" equation. When you think about the dimensions, it's a bruiser of a "field knife". However, in the hand, on the belt, or in a pack/bag, it doesn't seem to feel much bigger/heavier than your average SRK and sheath (*Hell, I believe that Roland [* @ferider ] regularly carries one in his front pocket 😳). Likewise, it's pretty "no frills" when you look at it. It's kinda' "All Go, No Show" in its execution. Despite that, its simplicity is quite beautiful. I once saw a pretty well-known TV Chef judging a "Cacio e Pepe" dish with which he was quite impressed. Being a relatively simplistic dish, he said, "Sometimes, simplicity is the most difficult thing to execute." For some reason, those words always stuck with me...and pretty-much sum up how I feel about the SDFK.

I have a few ~7" long/quarter-inch thick (*stupid robust) "field knives" that I've used to split wood, wiped down, and then left on the cutting/plating surface of the grill for cutting steak, fajitas, sausage, and the like. To their credit, most of 'em got the job done decently well. However, the SDFK really shines in that particular "contradiction". Is it a wood maul or froe? Absolutely not. Is it a "Shun Premier" Chef's knife? Again, absolutely not. However, it seems to complete a lot of tasks with relative ease.


Anyhow, my apologies for the long post.

I'll just say that I'm a big fan, exit stage right, and leave it at that...



View attachment 2712188
Click to expand...

I had an SDFK which now lives with my brother because I was lucky enough to score a signature SDFK.

It is by far my favorite knife. I've never found a use case where I wished I had a different knife. I think the only situation it might be lacking in would be where you want a 10 - 12 inch blade for chopping, etc.

It's a superb design and I'm certain I'll never encounter a situation where I might cause major damage to it.

If we lived in a more reasonable and rational time, I would literally carry it everywhere, everyday.
 
I haven't checked in on this thread in a little while, work has been crazy and had to take a trip for a little bit, but things are settling down finally. Lo and behold, it looks like the 'Super BFK' test is going to be released tomorrow, so my timing is impeccable lol.

My guess is that this one likely survives. It looks like it has the same thickness as the Creely Folklore Beast, that one passed the test with ease (then again, it was 8670).

One thing has been bothering me, though, and the latest picture of Joe with the new super blade yet again brought it to mind.

With the test of the original, the tip was lost nearly immediately after stabbing at the car. Why?

Now, to those that haven't already watched dozens of his videos, the obvious response is going to be 'well, yeah, he is stabbing the knife straight into a metal car, so duh', but seeing the tip get that blunted that quickly seems to be a little more the exception. While nearly all the tips of knives in these tests end up getting destroyed (and most broken off as well), most don't have it happen as soon as the stabbing starts. Usually, it is midway through the test that he loses the tip. A comparable blade being the Creely blade, the tip survives longer, and this is with 8670 steel that supposedly has far less edge retention/stability. Are we talking about two different things here?

I'm having difficulty squaring that result with the fact that the entire point of the Delta heat treat protocol is designed to give superior edge stability. Is this a geometry question? A 'behind the edge' or 'behind the tip' question? I don't know. And there weren't any large breakouts like with other knives in other tests, so that is excellent. But it is bugging me, even more than the blade snapping at the pole.

I'm sure after tomorrow we'll see even more activity in this thread.

For those of you that have recommended he gets ahold of some larger, bigger, or more hard use type of CPK products, time to put up:thumbsup:
 
Red Leader said:
I haven't checked in on this thread in a little while, work has been crazy and had to take a trip for a little bit, but things are settling down finally. Lo and behold, it looks like the 'Super BFK' test is going to be released tomorrow, so my timing is impeccable lol.

My guess is that this one likely survives. It looks like it has the same thickness as the Creely Folklore Beast, that one passed the test with ease (then again, it was 8670).

One thing has been bothering me, though, and the latest picture of Joe with the new super blade yet again brought it to mind.

With the test of the original, the tip was lost nearly immediately after stabbing at the car. Why?

Now, to those that haven't already watched dozens of his videos, the obvious response is going to be 'well, yeah, he is stabbing the knife straight into a metal car, so duh', but seeing the tip get that blunted that quickly seems to be a little more the exception. While nearly all the tips of knives in these tests end up getting destroyed (and most broken off as well), most don't have it happen as soon as the stabbing starts. Usually, it is midway through the test that he loses the tip. A comparable blade being the Creely blade, the tip survives longer, and this is with 8670 steel that supposedly has far less edge retention/stability. Are we talking about two different things here?

I'm having difficulty squaring that result with the fact that the entire point of the Delta heat treat protocol is designed to give superior edge stability. Is this a geometry question? A 'behind the edge' or 'behind the tip' question? I don't know. And there weren't any large breakouts like with other knives in other tests, so that is excellent. But it is bugging me, even more than the blade snapping at the pole.

I'm sure after tomorrow we'll see even more activity in this thread.

For those of you that have recommended he gets ahold of some larger, bigger, or more hard use type of CPK products, time to put up:thumbsup:
Click to expand...
Screw that guy lmao. If I want to see a heavy-duty CPK beat to hell until it breaks, I gonna do it my own damn self so’s I know just how much it can take. Not sending this bozo a $500-$600 knife so he can “get da cleeks”. :rolleyes:
 
Red Leader said:
I haven't checked in on this thread in a little while, work has been crazy and had to take a trip for a little bit, but things are settling down finally. Lo and behold, it looks like the 'Super BFK' test is going to be released tomorrow, so my timing is impeccable lol.

My guess is that this one likely survives. It looks like it has the same thickness as the Creely Folklore Beast, that one passed the test with ease (then again, it was 8670).

One thing has been bothering me, though, and the latest picture of Joe with the new super blade yet again brought it to mind.

With the test of the original, the tip was lost nearly immediately after stabbing at the car. Why?

Now, to those that haven't already watched dozens of his videos, the obvious response is going to be 'well, yeah, he is stabbing the knife straight into a metal car, so duh', but seeing the tip get that blunted that quickly seems to be a little more the exception. While nearly all the tips of knives in these tests end up getting destroyed (and most broken off as well), most don't have it happen as soon as the stabbing starts. Usually, it is midway through the test that he loses the tip. A comparable blade being the Creely blade, the tip survives longer, and this is with 8670 steel that supposedly has far less edge retention/stability. Are we talking about two different things here?

I'm having difficulty squaring that result with the fact that the entire point of the Delta heat treat protocol is designed to give superior edge stability. Is this a geometry question? A 'behind the edge' or 'behind the tip' question? I don't know. And there weren't any large breakouts like with other knives in other tests, so that is excellent. But it is bugging me, even more than the blade snapping at the pole.

I'm sure after tomorrow we'll see even more activity in this thread.

For those of you that have recommended he gets ahold of some larger, bigger, or more hard use type of CPK products, time to put up:thumbsup:
Click to expand...

A thicker tip tolerates more abuse at the expense of cutting ability.

You can see that our primary grinds geometry is narrower (thinner) than other knives like the AK47 because our grind goes higher but on the same stock thickness. We are in pursuit of edge retention and cutting ability.

We sharpen our edge at 20DPS, which is narrower than the vast majority of manufacturers. And, we maintain that angle around the tip where many makers have an issue with the point becoming more obtuse because we rotate the blade while sharpening, keeping the edge grind closer to perpendicular to the edge, makers that don't rotate create an obtuse point.

The knife I sent him is thicker than a normal BFK in edge and grind, with a reinforced point. I haven't seen the video and I don't know what happened, but I can about guarantee you that tip isn't going anywhere. Same steel, same metallurgy, different geometry.

Our knives have a higher Rockwell hardness and also a microstructure that supports better edge stability, in the pursuit of better edge retention. I have always said that my durability demonstrations are to prove that I haven't given up the toughness of the 3V in exchange for edge retention, as would normally be the case, and his video (like mine) demonstrate this.

^ this is real performance. Anybody can make a tough knife if it's thick and soft. A thick 8670 knife won't be a very good knife.

The blade I sent him is thick. It will hold up well and it will have the best edge retention of anything he has ever tested. I haven't seen the video or talked to him so I don't know if it breaks on the pole again. It depends on how long he bangs on it before giving up. I've done my part, it really boils down to what he had for breakfast.

If he shoots it with the AR-15 chambered in 5.56 it will break. A lower energy round (300 Blackout) it will survive.


Losing a tiny piece of a fine tip isn't weird to me. The second knife does not have a fine tip. It will abrade on stone but that point won't be broken, nor will the edge wear away or chip out.

I do worry about that pole though...
 
Nathan the Machinist said:
I do worry about that pole though...
Click to expand...

Haha you are not alone! There have been a few reaction videos done by the folks that sent in blades to him...Creely did one, and the folks behind the Hemlock Ares, the DBK boys...all fun stuff. At some points they are on the edge of their seat and you are right there with them. Fun to watch.

I appreciate your explanation, and it leads me to another question - how does one define cut performance in the competition world? Is it CATRA or something else? Is tip integrity part of that equation, and how is that measured? I'm curious about it, and it made me go back to rewatch that Creely blade on the car, and for a soft 8670 blade, the tip held up very well to slamming into the car roof, which is why I don't understand it. If a better steel (3V) and heat treat (Delta) is used to now support the use of those thinner grinds and edges to overcome what would have been a weaker geometry, wouldn't we then be seeing similar results as something with a thicker tip in a softer steel? Or is this an apples-to-oranges comparison and its really about how we define cutting ability, based on what is being cut? In the case of the Joe X videos, in reality it's about cutting brick, cutting sheet metal, etc (or trying), with the assumption being that results on harder materials will trickle down to lesser materials. I don't know if that is an accurate or fair assumption, but it is there. With D3V, what was cutting ability designed or optimized for? It probably wasn't brick or steel, but what was the overall vision?

I think the 'geometry vs steel' discussion matters, because - at some point, is the toughness of a soft blade steel edge rolling and blunting on some test going to actually outperform the edge retention of a high-hardness super steel that chips and breaks on the same test and then take more damage and then performs less, and... is that what we are seeing in these abuse tests?
 
Nathan the Machinist said:
A thicker tip tolerates more abuse at the expense of cutting ability.

You can see that our primary grinds geometry is narrower (thinner) than other knives like the AK47 because our grind goes higher but on the same stock thickness. We are in pursuit of edge retention and cutting ability.

We sharpen our edge at 20DPS, which is narrower than the vast majority of manufacturers. And, we maintain that angle around the tip where many makers have an issue with the point becoming more obtuse because we rotate the blade while sharpening, keeping the edge grind closer to perpendicular to the edge, makers that don't rotate create an obtuse point.

The knife I sent him is thicker than a normal BFK in edge and grind, with a reinforced point. I haven't seen the video and I don't know what happened, but I can about guarantee you that tip isn't going anywhere. Same steel, same metallurgy, different geometry.

Our knives have a higher Rockwell hardness and also a microstructure that supports better edge stability, in the pursuit of better edge retention. I have always said that my durability demonstrations are to prove that I haven't given up the toughness of the 3V in exchange for edge retention, as would normally be the case, and his video (like mine) demonstrate this.

^ this is real performance. Anybody can make a tough knife if it's thick and soft. A thick 8670 knife won't be a very good knife.

The blade I sent him is thick. It will hold up well and it will have the best edge retention of anything he has ever tested. I haven't seen the video or talked to him so I don't know if it breaks on the pole again. It depends on how long he bangs on it before giving up. I've done my part, it really boils down to what he had for breakfast.

If he shoots it with the AR-15 chambered in 5.56 it will break. A lower energy round (300 Blackout) it will survive.


Losing a tiny piece of a fine tip isn't weird to me. The second knife does not have a fine tip. It will abrade on stone but that point won't be broken, nor will the edge wear away or chip out.

I do worry about that pole though...
Click to expand...
I'd absolutely buy a super duty bfk. Or any super duty knife that's smaller than the SDFK!
 
Red Leader said:
…that Creely blade on the car, and for a soft 8670 blade, the tip held up very well to slamming into the car roof, which is why I don't understand it. If a better steel (3V) and heat treat (Delta) is used to now support the use of those thinner grinds and edges to overcome what would have been a weaker geometry, wouldn't we then be seeing similar results as something with a thicker tip in a softer steel? Or is this an apples-to-oranges comparison and it’s really about how we define cutting ability, based on what is being cut? In the case of the Joe X videos, in reality it's about cutting brick, cutting sheet metal, etc (or trying), with the assumption being that results on harder materials will trickle down to lesser materials. I don't know if that is an accurate or fair assumption, but it is there. With D3V, what was cutting ability designed or optimized for? It probably wasn't brick or steel, but what was the overall vision?

I think the 'geometry vs steel' discussion matters, because - at some point, is the toughness of a soft blade steel edge rolling and blunting on some test going to actually outperform the edge retention of a high-hardness super steel that chips and breaks on the same test and then take more damage and then performs less, and... is that what we are seeing in these abuse tests?
Click to expand...
“Hard” and “soft” in terms of penetration ability of a much softer car roof is moot. You could penetrate that car roof with a sharp-pointed piece of Aluminum if you tried hard enough. Lateral stress is mainly what breaks blades, and harder is generally more brittle, so break instead of bend.

His tests are a bit of a joke because he’s not really testing the “cutting” ability of anything. He bashes the edge against his targets, so they don’t have to be all that sharp. Give the guy a reasonably heat-treated piece of 1/4” S7 at say 56RC, and he’d never break it. He might bend it a bit, and the edge would probably wind up being mushroomed, but I doubt he’d break it. That’s why they make jackhammer bits out of the stuff.
 
Red Leader said:
- how does one define cut performance in the competition world?
Click to expand...

CATRA measures abrasive wear resistance. It doesn't even measure edge retention, just one component of it.

In the competition world, cut performance competition would be Bladesports. Very brutal competition. You have men as big as a linebacker giving it 100% on what is effectively a two pound 10" straight razor actually cutting things in a timed event. They can get through a 2X4 in seconds, and a 3/4" oak dowel in one hit.

If you're talking about putting your money where your mouth is in a cutting competition, Bladesports is the most real, highest performance competition. The unsanctioned Outlaw cut after the main event at the last race allows competitors to run anything they want, without restraint. The "Bleacher Report" is doing a segment on it soon.
 
Red Leader said:
I haven't checked in on this thread in a little while, work has been crazy and had to take a trip for a little bit, but things are settling down finally. Lo and behold, it looks like the 'Super BFK' test is going to be released tomorrow, so my timing is impeccable lol.

My guess is that this one likely survives. It looks like it has the same thickness as the Creely Folklore Beast, that one passed the test with ease (then again, it was 8670).

One thing has been bothering me, though, and the latest picture of Joe with the new super blade yet again brought it to mind.

With the test of the original, the tip was lost nearly immediately after stabbing at the car. Why?

Now, to those that haven't already watched dozens of his videos, the obvious response is going to be 'well, yeah, he is stabbing the knife straight into a metal car, so duh', but seeing the tip get that blunted that quickly seems to be a little more the exception. While nearly all the tips of knives in these tests end up getting destroyed (and most broken off as well), most don't have it happen as soon as the stabbing starts. Usually, it is midway through the test that he loses the tip. A comparable blade being the Creely blade, the tip survives longer, and this is with 8670 steel that supposedly has far less edge retention/stability. Are we talking about two different things here?

I'm having difficulty squaring that result with the fact that the entire point of the Delta heat treat protocol is designed to give superior edge stability. Is this a geometry question? A 'behind the edge' or 'behind the tip' question? I don't know. And there weren't any large breakouts like with other knives in other tests, so that is excellent. But it is bugging me, even more than the blade snapping at the pole.

I'm sure after tomorrow we'll see even more activity in this thread.

For those of you that have recommended he gets ahold of some larger, bigger, or more hard use type of CPK products, time to put up:thumbsup:
Click to expand...
Video is up

Watching him do the car stabbing thing he does.... there is a bit of tip damage from him stabbing into one of the strongest spots on a vehicle (this area has structure to prevent the roof from crushing in a roll over)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top