I've really been enjoying reading this thread. So many things bound up in a single topic. As I noted in my first post, the Camper pattern is an old emotional favorite but I don't carry it any more. As I've been reading the responses here, I've been mentally revisiting the "why not". More to the point, this is my daily carry. So the question is, would I replace these 2 for a single SAK/Camper style knife?
EDC Pair by Pinnah, on Flickr
I'm also finding that there is a zone of length that just doesn't work for me. If a knife is short and flat (like my Micra), I don't notice it even when it sits horizontally in the bottom of my pocket. When a knife is just long enough (like my Buck 500 was and Opinel N9 is), it sits enough vertically that I don't notice it as much as it bangs against my thighs. My BSA knife, like most slip joints for me fall into that zone where they seek the horizontal position in my pocket but end up laying more against my thigh in a buggy way. The Opinel N9, especially with the lanyard up and the lock ring down in the well of the pocket is less noticeable, even while longer.
Of the Victorinox knives, the Trekker style is the most compelling to me due to the flat frame and added length to both the frame and blade. I've given several of these as gifts.
As a short aside, if Victorinox would change their approach to heat treatment and commit to competing with Opinel's excellent heat treat that they give their Inox (Sandvik 12C27 hardened to the 58Rc range), this sort of knive would be more attractive and might get me to move to a single carry, instead of my current 2. Published information puts Victorinox's Inox in the 54 -55Rc range, which corresponds to my experience with it. Just too soft for my uses. YMMV territory on this point.
Another issue that keeps me with current carry is ergonomics in the hand and blade shape, which are related to the larger issue of cutting preference. I still have 2 BSA Ulsters and keep on my work bench where I use it on a regular basis. When doing work, it's sometimes just easier to pick the knife off of the bench than to reach into my pocket with grease covered hands. And I like the Ulster's spear blade for scoring cuts.
But I've found over the years that for most of my cutting, I enjoy a more ergonomic hold for my XL sized hands. I've come to strongly prefer a centered blade and really notice the off center position of the camper blade. And for many knife uses, I prefer a longer blade. For making feather sticks, I'll choose the Opinel. For reaching deep in the Nutella jar, the Opinel. Again, the Vic Trekker series gets much closer to this for me.
I've been really loving the pictures in this thread and note that a great many are super traditional and that is where my heart is with respect to this pattern.
This picture above highlights a question in my mind that's been simmering for the past few years though...
Are modern SAK's traditional? What separates them from the Leatherman-style multi-tool?
Obviously, modern SAKs are derived from the super-duper traditional camper and original soldier pattern. And I'm no SAK scholar but from what I've seen from the archived Victorinox catalogs, they did a lot of experimenting and changing during the 70s (as did a lot of folks). Three changes really stand out to me...
1) Modern tools for modern life. Of all the things that Victorinox has done right is that it has not been constrained by the old 4 blade formula for the camper. In the 1920s, cans and leather strapping were a fact of life. Not today. The Mini Champs shown above is just one a whole slew of tools combinations by Victorinox that recognize that today's EDC needs are different than they were in 20s. This is brilliant.
If I understand the history of Leatherman correctly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leatherman), it was during exactly this time, the mid 70s, that Timothy Leatherman was tinkering trying to make a "Boy Scout knife with pliers". One way to think of the original Pocket Survival Tool is to look at it as two co-joined slip joint knives. It was many, many years before Leatherman offered locks on their tools.
Please note, I'm not suggesting that Leatherman style tools should be considered "traditional" in the context of this forum. Just noting that modern SAKs and Leatherman style tools post the 1970s have both been dedicated to finding the right non-knife tool combinations for modern EDC life and this is to both of their credits. But when I look at modern SAK here, in this forum, it makes my brow crinkle a bit and wish the discussion would move to the Multitool forum where the discussion can be less constrained. In any event, this is a huge reason why I can't give up the Micra for my old BSA Ulsters. The Micra gives me a tiny standard screwdriver for the tiny, often recessed screws I encounter regularly; gives me scissors, which get used constantly; and gives me enough tools to deal with fixing my nails when need, which isn't glamorous but a reality.
2) Bails. In the 70s, Victorinox (and Wegner?) dropped traditional bails for the more modern nubbed eyelet to accept a lanyard. I'm sure this is a nit but for me, this small design change ranks, on par with thumbstuds, spydie holes and pocket clips. That's not a ding, really. It just says "modern" in a very loud way. Can you imagine a Case or a GEC or (gasp) a Tony Bose custom with this style of lanyard attachment? I can't. Can you imagine those knives with traditional bails? I can too.
3) Scales. Another nit. But I think it was around the 1970s that Victorinox moved full force to the snap on plastic scales. I don't know why they bother me but they do. It's not so much the lack of visible pins. It's more the joinery issue. We worry here on this forum if screwed joints could ever be considered right on traditional knife but we accept snapped on scales. To me, both are forms of modern joinery.
I'm not entirely sure where I'm going with this. I'm not trying to run down modern Victorinox knives in anyway. Perhaps the way to wrap up this little excursion is that as soon as I'm considering modern Victorinox products, I recognize that I'm looking at modern (post 1970s) multi-tools and when I accept that I'm looking at modern multi-tools instead of traditional pocket knives, I feel free to select more on issues of utility and not traditional aesthetics (which modern SAKs don't have anyway to my eye.
Anyway, if a single Camper/SAK style knife is going to get that Micra out of my pocket, it will need to meet or exceed it's functionally and durability and that is a very, very high bar. I'll say more about tool selection below when I talk about the future in just a second.
One way to deal with stopping the need need to walk for a tool is to put a key ring sized knife/tool in your off pocket. That sort of "off loads" the multi-tool functions to the little key ring tool (e.g. Vic Classic, Micra many others) allowing your EDC knife to be chosen purely on cutting/personal preferences. Does raise the issue of carrying 2 tools instead of 1, which is what I'm trying to sort out in my own mind with long rambling post.
In terms of who could pull it off, I used agitate for GEC to revive the American style camper but, sadly, I think the Camper pattern as I grew up with has become over run by changing realities of modern life. Victorinox and Leatherman both (correctly) walked away from tradition to deal with this. They have the designs and the tooling and the experience to put more useful tools in their products. IMO, that's just not turf that GEC should compete on. I used to agitate that they should do 2 versions, an old retro throw back (which would be more in their wheel house) and a more updated Farm and Field version with updated tools.
But lately, I'm thinking that Leatherman would be a better choice to bridge the gap between the old and new in the same way that the Inox Victorinox knives do. Here's my reasoning...
I want to call special attention to the second knife down in the left hand column - the old US military issue knive, aka the "demo knife". Notice the combination of aluminum scales, thin cross sectional profile and riveted construction. And now look at the original Leatherman PST in the closed position.
To my eye, there is a strong aesthetic similarity between the US military demo knives, the Vic Alox knives and what Leatherman calls their "legacy" style of construction, which is based on this rivet style. This design element similarity is so strong, it makes me wonder if the "boy scout style knife" that Leatherman carried in his travels in Europe in the 70s was, in fact, an all metal demo knife!!
So.. finally I'm getting to the end of this long, long post....
If I were going to change out my Opinel N9/Micra combination, it would need to be following...
1) It must be thin in the pocket with decent ergonomics. I want tools on 1 side away from my thumb. I want only 4 tools, to keep the the blade thin, unless the construction uses Leatherman's stainless combination scale/spring design which allows for multiple tools while keeping the width very narrow.
2) I want it to have the following tools (limiting this to 4)
i) Main blade (prefer spear for small knifes).
ii) Scissors. This is a deal breaker for me.
iii) Caplifter/screw driver. Another must have deal breaker.
iv) Combination nail file, phillips driver, scraper. Take the Micra's nail fail, replace the tip with the Micra's phillips head driver (2 blade) and keep the edges somewhat squared off like Micra's large standard driver and this would do it.
3) I'd strongly prefer a metal scaled knife like the Army "demo knife" or Victorinox Alox line for durability and thin carry.
4) I would like to see this offered in 2 lengths; one like the traditional demo knife/SAK and a longer version like the Vic Trekkers, Opinel N9 (or very non-traditional Leatherman C33T, which is essentially a very modern version of the traditional camper 4 tools selection minus the awl).
If Victorinox would fix their heat treatment and offer this selection of tools in either the Alox or Trekker lines, I would reconsider my daily carry.
And super long shot, I think it would be awesome if Leatherman would step up and challenge Victorinox on the smaller pocket knife size. I really, really think that Leatherman's legacy style of construction and the old "demo knife" are kissing cousins.
Last point... if anybody actually read this entire post, you really need to get out more. Sorry for the length.
EDC Pair by Pinnah, on Flickr
Weight and bulk are definitely issues for me and they are very closely related. Over the years, I've noticed that for me, the heavier the knife, the more I want it to have a flat profile in the pocket. I can carry a larger, heavier single blade Buck 500 in my pocket than BSA style knife. The issue for me is the bulky square profile. Conversely, as weight goes down, I can handle more girth in the knife, which is why the Opinel N9 works for me. It's as big or bigger than my BSA knife in terms of girth but I notice it less.
I'm also finding that there is a zone of length that just doesn't work for me. If a knife is short and flat (like my Micra), I don't notice it even when it sits horizontally in the bottom of my pocket. When a knife is just long enough (like my Buck 500 was and Opinel N9 is), it sits enough vertically that I don't notice it as much as it bangs against my thighs. My BSA knife, like most slip joints for me fall into that zone where they seek the horizontal position in my pocket but end up laying more against my thigh in a buggy way. The Opinel N9, especially with the lanyard up and the lock ring down in the well of the pocket is less noticeable, even while longer.
Of the Victorinox knives, the Trekker style is the most compelling to me due to the flat frame and added length to both the frame and blade. I've given several of these as gifts.
As a short aside, if Victorinox would change their approach to heat treatment and commit to competing with Opinel's excellent heat treat that they give their Inox (Sandvik 12C27 hardened to the 58Rc range), this sort of knive would be more attractive and might get me to move to a single carry, instead of my current 2. Published information puts Victorinox's Inox in the 54 -55Rc range, which corresponds to my experience with it. Just too soft for my uses. YMMV territory on this point.
Another issue that keeps me with current carry is ergonomics in the hand and blade shape, which are related to the larger issue of cutting preference. I still have 2 BSA Ulsters and keep on my work bench where I use it on a regular basis. When doing work, it's sometimes just easier to pick the knife off of the bench than to reach into my pocket with grease covered hands. And I like the Ulster's spear blade for scoring cuts.
But I've found over the years that for most of my cutting, I enjoy a more ergonomic hold for my XL sized hands. I've come to strongly prefer a centered blade and really notice the off center position of the camper blade. And for many knife uses, I prefer a longer blade. For making feather sticks, I'll choose the Opinel. For reaching deep in the Nutella jar, the Opinel. Again, the Vic Trekker series gets much closer to this for me.
Various SAKs. Top to bottom: Mini Champ, Climber, Farmer, Pioneer, Alox Classic.
I've been really loving the pictures in this thread and note that a great many are super traditional and that is where my heart is with respect to this pattern.
This picture above highlights a question in my mind that's been simmering for the past few years though...
Are modern SAK's traditional? What separates them from the Leatherman-style multi-tool?
Obviously, modern SAKs are derived from the super-duper traditional camper and original soldier pattern. And I'm no SAK scholar but from what I've seen from the archived Victorinox catalogs, they did a lot of experimenting and changing during the 70s (as did a lot of folks). Three changes really stand out to me...
1) Modern tools for modern life. Of all the things that Victorinox has done right is that it has not been constrained by the old 4 blade formula for the camper. In the 1920s, cans and leather strapping were a fact of life. Not today. The Mini Champs shown above is just one a whole slew of tools combinations by Victorinox that recognize that today's EDC needs are different than they were in 20s. This is brilliant.
If I understand the history of Leatherman correctly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leatherman), it was during exactly this time, the mid 70s, that Timothy Leatherman was tinkering trying to make a "Boy Scout knife with pliers". One way to think of the original Pocket Survival Tool is to look at it as two co-joined slip joint knives. It was many, many years before Leatherman offered locks on their tools.
Please note, I'm not suggesting that Leatherman style tools should be considered "traditional" in the context of this forum. Just noting that modern SAKs and Leatherman style tools post the 1970s have both been dedicated to finding the right non-knife tool combinations for modern EDC life and this is to both of their credits. But when I look at modern SAK here, in this forum, it makes my brow crinkle a bit and wish the discussion would move to the Multitool forum where the discussion can be less constrained. In any event, this is a huge reason why I can't give up the Micra for my old BSA Ulsters. The Micra gives me a tiny standard screwdriver for the tiny, often recessed screws I encounter regularly; gives me scissors, which get used constantly; and gives me enough tools to deal with fixing my nails when need, which isn't glamorous but a reality.
2) Bails. In the 70s, Victorinox (and Wegner?) dropped traditional bails for the more modern nubbed eyelet to accept a lanyard. I'm sure this is a nit but for me, this small design change ranks, on par with thumbstuds, spydie holes and pocket clips. That's not a ding, really. It just says "modern" in a very loud way. Can you imagine a Case or a GEC or (gasp) a Tony Bose custom with this style of lanyard attachment? I can't. Can you imagine those knives with traditional bails? I can too.
3) Scales. Another nit. But I think it was around the 1970s that Victorinox moved full force to the snap on plastic scales. I don't know why they bother me but they do. It's not so much the lack of visible pins. It's more the joinery issue. We worry here on this forum if screwed joints could ever be considered right on traditional knife but we accept snapped on scales. To me, both are forms of modern joinery.
I'm not entirely sure where I'm going with this. I'm not trying to run down modern Victorinox knives in anyway. Perhaps the way to wrap up this little excursion is that as soon as I'm considering modern Victorinox products, I recognize that I'm looking at modern (post 1970s) multi-tools and when I accept that I'm looking at modern multi-tools instead of traditional pocket knives, I feel free to select more on issues of utility and not traditional aesthetics (which modern SAKs don't have anyway to my eye.
Anyway, if a single Camper/SAK style knife is going to get that Micra out of my pocket, it will need to meet or exceed it's functionally and durability and that is a very, very high bar. I'll say more about tool selection below when I talk about the future in just a second.
One way to deal with stopping the need need to walk for a tool is to put a key ring sized knife/tool in your off pocket. That sort of "off loads" the multi-tool functions to the little key ring tool (e.g. Vic Classic, Micra many others) allowing your EDC knife to be chosen purely on cutting/personal preferences. Does raise the issue of carrying 2 tools instead of 1, which is what I'm trying to sort out in my own mind with long rambling post.
In terms of who could pull it off, I used agitate for GEC to revive the American style camper but, sadly, I think the Camper pattern as I grew up with has become over run by changing realities of modern life. Victorinox and Leatherman both (correctly) walked away from tradition to deal with this. They have the designs and the tooling and the experience to put more useful tools in their products. IMO, that's just not turf that GEC should compete on. I used to agitate that they should do 2 versions, an old retro throw back (which would be more in their wheel house) and a more updated Farm and Field version with updated tools.
But lately, I'm thinking that Leatherman would be a better choice to bridge the gap between the old and new in the same way that the Inox Victorinox knives do. Here's my reasoning...
I want to call special attention to the second knife down in the left hand column - the old US military issue knive, aka the "demo knife". Notice the combination of aluminum scales, thin cross sectional profile and riveted construction. And now look at the original Leatherman PST in the closed position.
To my eye, there is a strong aesthetic similarity between the US military demo knives, the Vic Alox knives and what Leatherman calls their "legacy" style of construction, which is based on this rivet style. This design element similarity is so strong, it makes me wonder if the "boy scout style knife" that Leatherman carried in his travels in Europe in the 70s was, in fact, an all metal demo knife!!
So.. finally I'm getting to the end of this long, long post....
If I were going to change out my Opinel N9/Micra combination, it would need to be following...
1) It must be thin in the pocket with decent ergonomics. I want tools on 1 side away from my thumb. I want only 4 tools, to keep the the blade thin, unless the construction uses Leatherman's stainless combination scale/spring design which allows for multiple tools while keeping the width very narrow.
2) I want it to have the following tools (limiting this to 4)
i) Main blade (prefer spear for small knifes).
ii) Scissors. This is a deal breaker for me.
iii) Caplifter/screw driver. Another must have deal breaker.
iv) Combination nail file, phillips driver, scraper. Take the Micra's nail fail, replace the tip with the Micra's phillips head driver (2 blade) and keep the edges somewhat squared off like Micra's large standard driver and this would do it.
3) I'd strongly prefer a metal scaled knife like the Army "demo knife" or Victorinox Alox line for durability and thin carry.
4) I would like to see this offered in 2 lengths; one like the traditional demo knife/SAK and a longer version like the Vic Trekkers, Opinel N9 (or very non-traditional Leatherman C33T, which is essentially a very modern version of the traditional camper 4 tools selection minus the awl).
If Victorinox would fix their heat treatment and offer this selection of tools in either the Alox or Trekker lines, I would reconsider my daily carry.
And super long shot, I think it would be awesome if Leatherman would step up and challenge Victorinox on the smaller pocket knife size. I really, really think that Leatherman's legacy style of construction and the old "demo knife" are kissing cousins.
Last point... if anybody actually read this entire post, you really need to get out more. Sorry for the length.
