Chalk Another Up for W(by God) VA

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Not sure if this fits better here or in Current Events but here it goes:

Thursday January 31, 2008

Faced with fewer hunters, state may offer gun training in schools
by The Associated Press

A significant drop in the number of hunters in West Virginia has left multimillion dollar holes in the state's budget and one lawmaker thinks he has the solution: allow children to receive hunter training in school.

Children would be instructed in everything from survival skills to gun safety, but the guns would either have dummy ammunition or be disabled in some way. Sen. Billy Wayne Bailey, who introduced the bill, doesn't envision West Virginia's middle-schoolers firing real guns during class time.

"It's a way to take this kind of education in the classroom and make it more convenient for young people,'' the Wyoming County Democrat said.

Wish we'd have had something like this when I was in school:thumbup:

Full story here

http://www.dailymail.com/News/statenews/200801310105
 
Not sure if this fits better here or in Current Events but here it goes:



Wish we'd have had something like this when I was in school:thumbup:

Full story here

http://www.dailymail.com/News/statenews/200801310105

I had Hunter's safety when I was in middle school. The Course was taught by the local conservation officer and upon completion we recieved our certification,also when the course was over we took a field trip to East Lynn Lake and EVERYONE was required to execute proper safety with a 22 bolt action rifle with live ammunition. We each fired three shots at the shooting range:thumbup:
 
If the state simply can't get the revenue it needs, wouldn't it just be a better idea to cut spending, rather than train youngsters to pay for a state-controlled activity they're increasingly disinterested in?
 
High School ROTC. .22's, 03A3's, and M-1's Can you say "BOOM!"?

Can't believe it's like that in California these days, but who knows.
 
If the state simply can't get the revenue it needs, wouldn't it just be a better idea to cut spending, rather than train youngsters to pay for a state-controlled activity they're increasingly disinterested in?

Yeah, maybe we should quit education in reading, writing, math and history too.:rolleyes:;)
 
If the state simply can't get the revenue it needs, wouldn't it just be a better idea to cut spending, rather than train youngsters to pay for a state-controlled activity they're increasingly disinterested in?


I dont' think so. A lot of times if you aren't exposed to something you never have an appreciation for it. I never had an appreciation for fine art till I had to take the class.

Also too many kids grow up these days when they think about guns, all they think about is killing people like they have seen on movies. Introducing them to the sporting use of firearms might actually help reduce violence and accidental shootings IMO.

As far as the revenue aspect WV itself is running a big surplus. They have cut a few taxes but instead of wasting all the surplus in tax cuts they created a "rainy day fund" which is helps the state provide services in the event of hard times.

The thing idea behind the classes is they may allow the DNR to remain self sufficient.
 
Yeah, maybe we should quit education in reading, writing, math and history too.

This is pretty silly. The state doesn't issue a license for reading, writing, math and history, and those things don't generate revenue. According to the article, the reason for this isn't education. It's lost revenue. This is as if the state, facing declining revenue from falling cigarette taxes, decides the schools need smoking classes.

This is a state subsidy to help fund a declining, but revenue generating sport, with the motive of preserving an uncertain revenue stream. Traditionally, government schools offered classes as tools to help students eventually become self sufficient members of society. This turns that idea on it's head, by offering instructions intended to make students become consumers of government services.

hollowdweller said:
I dont' think so. A lot of times if you aren't exposed to something you never have an appreciation for it. I never had an appreciation for fine art till I had to take the class.

This is a slippery slope argument. There is no end to the list of things that could be taught. The really odd thing to me is that there doesn't even seem as if there's much of a demand for hunting classes, as evidenced by decline of permits. The government isn't even making a case that this is somehow for the public good. This is for the good of government coffers.

hollowdweller said:
Also too many kids grow up these days when they think about guns, all they think about is killing people like they have seen on movies. Introducing them to the sporting use of firearms might actually help reduce violence and accidental shootings IMO.

Why is this not the responsibility of parents and actual gun owners, rather than the state?

hollowdweller said:
As far as the revenue aspect WV itself is running a big surplus. They have cut a few taxes but instead of wasting all the surplus in tax cuts they created a "rainy day fund" which is helps the state provide services in the event of hard times.

This seems contrary to the article, which says the state is feeling the hurt from the declining revenue. Adding classes of questionable demand and value does seem like a odd rainy day.

hollowdweller said:
The thing idea behind the classes is they may allow the DNR to remain self sufficient.

Why not charge actual users of wilderness areas for their use? That seems pretty fair. Why should government subsidize a recreational sport that isn't self sustaining?
 
This is pretty silly. The state doesn't issue a license for reading, writing, math and history, and those things don't generate revenue. According to the article, the reason for this isn't education. It's lost revenue. This is as if the state, facing declining revenue from falling cigarette taxes, decides the schools need smoking classes.
I'm not sure that an anology to drug use is apt. But if it is, the G subsidizes the production of tobacco. That kills 400K citizens a year. This seems far less damaging. (But we HAVE to have that tobacco tax, right?)

This is a state subsidy to help fund a declining, but revenue generating sport, with the motive of preserving an uncertain revenue stream. Traditionally, government schools offered classes as tools to help students eventually become self sufficient members of society. This turns that idea on it's head, by offering instructions intended to make students become consumers of government services.
ROTC was offered because the nation needs a defense.

Gun use might be taught so the nation has citizens who can shoot.
Jefferson, and most of the "Foundign fathers" thought citizens who could shoot was a sound idea. Hence, the Second Amendement.

Golf was taught in my HS so . . . . . . . . Now why was it taught?

Why is this not the responsibility of parents and actual gun owners, rather than the state?
Because the Social Contract says its the duty of government to keep us safe. I think that's an imperfect solution, but it's supposed to justify why we can't "take law into our own hands."

Why not charge actual users of wilderness areas for their use? That seems pretty fair. Why should government subsidize a recreational sport that isn't self sustaining?
That is largely the present system in most government parks - "Fee for Use." As I recall, fees to camp in National Parks started in the 1960's. I have paid the fees many times for my Scouts to camp in Alleghany NF.


Given that the G pays out our money to subsidizes tobacco that kills hundreds of thousands, this seems quite sane. If the citizens of WBGV don't like it, they can vote the rascals out.
 
I'm not sure that an anology to drug use is apt. But if it is, the G subsidizes the production of tobacco. That kills 400K citizens a year. This seems far less damaging. (But we HAVE to have that tobacco tax, right?)

Do you argue in favor of tobacco subsidies? That and farm subsidies in general are even crazier ideas. Interesting you bring up the tobacco taxes. One of the major factors in ending prohibition was the realization that booze would bring in revenue!

This plan IS like the government handing out shotglasses for the purpose of raking in the tax revenue on the whiskey people buy.

ROTC was offered because the nation needs a defense.
Gun use might be taught so the nation has citizens who can shoot.
Jefferson, and most of the "Foundign fathers" thought citizens who could shoot was a sound idea. Hence, the Second Amendement.

Golf was taught in my HS so . . . . . . . . Now why was it taught?

Interesting that this WV proposal seems to have little to do with gun rights, or self defense, or the Second Amendment.

The idea that state schools can teach useful things isn't a new one.
The idea that state schools can teach popular things isn't a new one. What is new is that the state school is used to teach a non essential subject, of diminishing popularity, I might add, because the state needs the money it can squeeze from students. And there's little indication that it would even work! It presumes that all the other things youngsters do to fill their lives will go away so they again can take up hunting.

Because the Social Contract says its the duty of government to keep us safe. I think that's an imperfect solution, but it's supposed to justify why we can't "take law into our own hands."

Where is this social contract? I never signed it. If the government really wanted to keep us all safe, they'd more likely take away guns, than teach them in schools. That would seem the best way for the government to discourage folks from taking the law into their own hands.

That is largely the present system in most government parks - "Fee for Use." As I recall, fees to camp in National Parks started in the 1960's. I have paid the fees many times for my Scouts to camp in Alleghany NF.

This is as it should be. It's generally the same where I live.

Given that the G pays out our money to subsidizes tobacco that kills hundreds of thousands, this seems quite sane. If the citizens of WBGV don't like it, they can vote the rascals out.

Subsidizing tobacco is a really stupid way to rationalize the state's subsidizing of the hunting business. Folks there can vote for all this and a pony. It's still government expansion for the sake of preserving government expansion.
 
The really odd thing to me is that there doesn't even seem as if there's much of a demand for hunting classes, as evidenced by decline of permits. The government isn't even making a case that this is somehow for the public good. This is for the good of government coffers.

Shecky,

Simply because the article cited does not quote the DNR making reference to "the public good" of the proposition doesn't mean there isn't one. What you are failing to grasp is that 1) game management is an accepted role that the state has taken on, 2) funding for that role has been assigned to sportsmen, and 3) hunters are a primary tool used to manage said wildlife. If sportsmen numbers continue to decline, less revenue and fewer hunters will be available to assist in managing wildlife populations. This will force government to look for other sources of funding as well as other means of managing wildlife populations. This would likely mean higher taxes and quite possibly waste of countless game animals. Such waste is against public policy.

Yes, hunters are in a sense paying for their use of public lands, but even hunters who hunt only on private property are required to take Hunter Safety and buy a license. Further, bunny huggers, bird watchers, campers, farmers and pretty much everyone else benefits from well-managed wildlife, but the financial burden is placed primarily of hunters and fishermen.

While I agree with your sentiment toward encouraging government to cut spending in general, and I agree that tobacco and farm subsidies are a poor use of public funds, I suspect that your objection may arise more from what appears to be an aversion to firearms in the hands of citizens, not government spending. I find this statement by you to be quite telling:
If the government really wanted to keep us all safe, they'd more likely take away guns, than teach them in schools. That would seem the best way for the government to discourage folks from taking the law into their own hands.

I would assert that hunting is a positive activity, that has been tapped to fund necessary governmental activity. It encourages citizens to put surplus game animals to beneficial use, while (hopefully) keeping their numbers at a managable level. Social stigma by hysterical anti-gun activists has resulted in, among other things, "gun-free" schools where children can be expelled for drawing a picture of a gun! God forbid they bring in a picture of their pen pal who is a soldier in Iraq or share a story about their dad taking them turkey hunting.

This foolish "Ooh! Guns are BAD! Guns are SCARY!" pap that is force fed our children wrongly suggests criminality and/or mental instability on millions of law-abiding gun owners. In contrast, a program like this in the schools could (possibly) diffuse the carricature of guns and gun owners, while providing some level of gun safety instruction. By all means firearms need to be respected, and teaching firarm safety is reasonable and responsible in a nation where private ownership of firearms is quite popular. Failure to do so in my mind is plainly negligent, as it would be if we failed to teach children basic traffic safety.

Why is this not the responsibility of parents and actual gun owners, rather than the state?

I would agree with this argument if it was appied across the board, and if so much misinformation had not already been steadily fed to public school students.

First, I would go so far as to say that the entire responssibility for educating a child falls on the parents, not the government. Public schools should be a safety measure to provide basic education to those children whose parents simply cannot afford to send them to a private school and are ill-equipped to home school them. This would be for the public benefit of preventing indigent children from growing up to become burdens on society. That being said, public schools have become compulsory government indoctrination centers, dominated by the Left, and an inordinant amount of time is devoted to social engineering. Schools routinely teach subjects that parents object to, appealing to "academic freedom" and higher social responsibilities. Some examples are amoral Sex Ed, Fundmentalist Global Warmatarianism, and fanatical anti-gun hysteria. These enlightened academics have agressively chased out anyone promoting ideas that contradict their agenda. Just look at how many ROTC groups have been run off campuses around the country.

Since public schools have taken on the broad role they have, seeking to speak authoritatively into nearly all aspects of a child's life, I refuse to agree that I should stay back, and seek to address these issues outside of the schools.

Second, I would wager tht there are plenty of gun owners, as well as organizations who would jump at the chance to assist in funding such exucation programs in public schools.

Finally, I think the idea of using dummy ammo or otherwise disabled firearms is kind of silly. I would much prefer the students handle actual firearms and live ammunition in a controlled environment under the control of trained range personnel. Better to have the kids, with parental permission of course, complete any shooting component of the training at an off-campus shooting range.

-- FLIX
 
I welcome the idea of Hunter?shooter classes in WV but don't think it will raise revenue, I think more people are just not buying permits rather they hunt or not. If I was trying to raise DNR revenue here I might raise the price of trout stamps or ruduce the amount of trout stocked, WV has a really great trout stocking program and many partake. I have only lived here for 3 years and would bow to Hollow Dweller and WV Hills experence on my view.
 
Wow - a politician with an intelligent worthwhile proposal. I didn't think such a thing existed!

As far as whether or not a state should be teaching hunter safety to generate revenue - I don't see it as much different than a driver's education class. States get a lot of revenue issuing driver's licenses and license plates. Teaching driver's ed encourages kids to get their licenses before they might otherwise - and for parents who can afford it to buy them a car with a license plate. If teaching hunter safety to generate hunting license revenue doesn't make sense, then teaching driver's ed for teenagers' recreational driving habits (which generates driver and car license revenue) doesn't make sense. Fact is, it's done and it's considered acceptable by most folks. What that politician is proposing isn't really "thinking outside the box" - it's very much inside the box.

As far as my own biased opinion on the subject... one thing is clear, new forms of media are consuming youngster's lives more and more from the internet, to DVDs and cable TV. Once fiber-optic data pipes are available this whole process of increasing media entertainment is going to really take off in ways that are going to make your head spin. All this is decreasing the amount of time available for other, more traditional recreation - camping, hunting, fishing and just being outdoors doing something. I'm definitely biased on this subject - I didn't grow up with a TV in the house until I was 13 and it was probably one of the luckiest things that ever happened to me. If we don't do something about how youngsters spend their time we're going to have an overweight society that can't maintain their focus for more than ten seconds and sees little value in protecting the natural environment. In my opinion, this issue is about the strength and longevity of this nation. We ignore it at our peril.
 
Hunter/Firearms saftey was taught in Va. public shcools during mid 70's-mid 80's. As was sex ed. and drivers ed.--- though they were taught on alternate days due to a conflict in resources...

The very best in protection is education.

2Door
 
I took hunter ed in 1995 as part of "Wildlife management," a course offered by my highschool in central Texas. My sister took the same class in 1999. I don't know if it is still available, however.
 
This is pretty silly. The state doesn't issue a license for reading, writing, math and history, and those things don't generate revenue. According to the article, the reason for this isn't education. It's lost revenue. This is as if the state, facing declining revenue from falling cigarette taxes, decides the schools need smoking classes.

This is a state subsidy to help fund a declining, but revenue generating sport, with the motive of preserving an uncertain revenue stream. Traditionally, government schools offered classes as tools to help students eventually become self sufficient members of society. This turns that idea on it's head, by offering instructions intended to make students become consumers of government services.



This is a slippery slope argument. There is no end to the list of things that could be taught. The really odd thing to me is that there doesn't even seem as if there's much of a demand for hunting classes, as evidenced by decline of permits. The government isn't even making a case that this is somehow for the public good. This is for the good of government coffers.



Why is this not the responsibility of parents and actual gun owners, rather than the state?



This seems contrary to the article, which says the state is feeling the hurt from the declining revenue. Adding classes of questionable demand and value does seem like a odd rainy day.



Why not charge actual users of wilderness areas for their use? That seems pretty fair. Why should government subsidize a recreational sport that isn't self sustaining?

Shecky?

I totally see the logic in your argument:thumbup:

I just don't agree with it:D

Doesn't make you wrong or anything. We are just seeing things from a different perpective:)
 
Concerning the OP - This is one of the reasons I love this State.
If you can offer WoodShop - why not this?
It sounds like is a wonderful alternative course, and it could potentially give many of our youth an opportunity to get more aquainted with the outdoors - especially those in the urban environments.
Whether or not they go with the gun course, I think the Wilderness Survival portion would be very interesting to a lot of Kids - but we'll see how it goes.

sp
 
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