Chalk Another Up for W(by God) VA

Shecky, I am quickly losing faith in your ability to add reason and logic to these discussions. So much smoke.....so much Marxism.... so much....
 
I've been following this thread, the debate is interesting to say the least. If I may, I'd like to submit a north-of-the-border opinion.

A bit of background: in high school (1986-ish) we had a program called Conservation and Outdoor Recreation Education (CORE). Not only was firearm safety part of the curriculum, but game species identification and some introductory biology were taught, as well as an introduction to land use and resource management issues. It sounds like a comparable course.
And rather than ROTC, we have cadet corps that focus more on citizenship and leadership in a quasi-military environment than on deliberate recruiting for the CF. Think 'Boy Scouts with guns'.

Anyway, coming from a viewpoint free of the legislative entanglement of citizens' constitutional right to firearms, I think this program can only be helpful. I agree that the parents hold ultimate responsibility for teaching their kids all aspects of citizenship. However, one needs only to watch the news to see that this isn't happening. The reasons why are irrelevant: a problem exists and this appears to be an attempt to actually solve the problem instead of shifting responsibility for it. Instead of arguing over who should be providing the education, why not just see that it's delivered by those best equipped to deliver it ?

As most probably know, a license is required to buy or possess a firearm in Canada. The license application is straightforward and the license is easy to obtain, but proof of competency is required. It's actually MORE arduous for kids to get a driver's license now that we have a graduated licensing system in BC. I haven't looked up the numbers, but I think it's a no-brainer to say that the number of accidental shootings compared to the number of firearms possessed is lower in jurisdictions that have some sort of mandatory safety education. Granted, using stats in an argument is a slippery slope, but it seems pretty intuitive to me that this is a good thing.

I generally try to stay clear of online political arguments, so I'll simply say that, HD: I like the phrase 'redneck socialist' ! It tickles me that 'socialist' is so often used as an epithet.:D

SkunkWerX, I agree wholeheartedly that there are FAR easier ways for any state to generate revenue. If the price of gas went up another penny, it wouldn't generate this many posts.I read in the article that revenue was given as a reason, but it was through the filter of the unnamed AP reporter, not a direct quote.

Does anyone honestly think politicians by-and-large are competent and far-sighted enough to consciously steer cultural development, especially when they have only a limited term to play with ? Just curious...

Great thread, good arguments on both sides !:thumbup:
 
SkunkWerX said:
Shecky,
I gotta tell you, West Virginia is the antithesis of BIG GOVERNMENT.
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Sorry, but government creating demand for it's own services IS big government. This is govenrment for the sake of government.

SkunkWerX said:
Thye aren't forcing anyone to do anything. They are supporting those who want to, just like Maryland puts in boat ramps for boaters. They aren't forcing us all to be boaters. But those of us with boats pay for registration each year. if they wanted to teach sailing and safe boating in Maryland schools , I would be all for it, it is part of our heritage!!!
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I have no problem with teaching hunter safety, sailing, etc. That ISN'T the issue. Such things are weakly supported when demand for these classes are low, as seems to be the case in WV. Furthermore, I definitely do have a problem if such things are taught to prop up falling demand of government services.
 
Myth Inc. said:
Shecky, you seem to be a thoughtful man in general. I follow most of your lines of thought, more or less. Some I agree with and some I don't ... but ... I must confess, you completely lost me with the comment about "welfare" for my "pet" idea ?
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Everyone hates facing the fact when government supports your pet project. But government support for a service that is falling in demand is welfare.
 
hollowdweller said:
I am a redneck socialist so teaching kids to hunt, and giving them good gov't jobs working in fresh air in state parks instead of min wage fast food jobs Great:thumbup: Making sure that the game isn't all shot up and there's enough woods and clean water? Cool!:thumbup: Some public land for folks who don't have any other place to hunt and nature study? Hey I'm all for that:thumbup:

But some of these other guys you are calling socialists too I know and trust me they AREN'T.
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Re-read what you wrote. That IS socialism by pretty much any measure.
 
rockspyder said:
I'd much rather have my state gov't doing what WV's is talking about here, instead of what my wonder Republik of Marilundt is trying to do right now: one of the House Bills is trying to levy a 5 cent/round tax on all ammunition for regulated firearms. Which, for Marilundt, is all handguns and certain long guns that look mean. So, the way I understand it, a 1k brick of .22LR ammo would have an additional tax of $50 placed on it, since it can be ammo for a pistol or revolver. Nice, eh?
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Maryland's dumb governance isn't justification for WV's. Or anyone else's.
 
Nice post, Deadeye. :thumbup: Good to get a different prospective.

"Entanglement"

Actually, our "Founding Fathers" would have said you have the same right to "go armed" as our citizens.

The theory is that rights are NOT granted by the "Bill of Rights" in our Constitution, much less by government, but, being inherent to all humans, are merely recognized and protected by the Constitution that controls this government. So the "entanglement" is more by way of a Gordian Knot.
 
Smash05 said:
If you think that the other subjects don't generate revenue, think again. If you don't get some kind of education, you can't get a job, can't do alot of things. I have no problem with it. The biggest problem facing firearm owners in this country is a lack of education - period.
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There isn't an argument that "some kind of education" can't be beneficial. I don't even argue that lack of firearm education isn't beneficial.

However, such education should be a burden put on those who actually use firearms. According to the article, fewer and fewer people feel such a need. And nobody is stopping those who do. Asking government schools to do this is completely unnecessary.

StretchNM said:
Shecky, I am quickly losing faith in your ability to add reason and logic to these discussions. So much smoke.....so much Marxism.... so much....
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Yes, it's Marxist to expect government to not expand it's unneeded services. :rolleyes:
 
Staffing state parks is "socialism"? How so?

And government funding for a public service such as a park is, "welfare"? Please explain.

Traditionally, socialism is control by a government (representing the masses)of the "commanding heights" of the economy -- public utilities, health care, food production, communications media, and other major industry. Government operation of parks, schools, the military, law enforcement, and education has not been seen as socialism. Those last were accepted roles of government in monarchies where the monachs actually ruled. "Socialist" emperors and kings?

"Welfare" these days seems to be any act of government disfavored by the commentator. So letting someone keep more of his money rather than having the government take that money is "welfare" and giving money to someone for their living expenses is "welfare." That suggests to me that there is no consensus definition of "welfare."
 
Shecky,
Are you bored?

One aspect of school education is to expose kids to things they would otherwise remain ignorant of, whether it is hunting, lacrosse or poetry. To sentence children to the limitations of their parents interests is arcane. Education should include broadening of the mind and horizons, not just filling in the blanks.
I will avoid the "big brother conspiracy" for lack of intelligent ground to stand on.

2Door
 
Thomas Linton said:
Traditionally, socialism is control by a government (representing the masses)of the "commanding heights" of the economy -- public utilities, health care, food production, communications media, and other major industry. Government operation of parks, schools, the military, law enforcement, and education has not been seen as socialism. Those last were accepted roles of government in monarchies where the monachs actually ruled. "Socialist" emperors and kings?
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The whole "socialisim as a perjorative" has not a lot to do with the actual definition:rolleyes:


By that standard any collective effort on the part of a people to advance the "common good" is socialisim;)
 
Shecky, I didn't make my statement dependant on the content of this thread, but rather based on a short accumulation of statements you've made in other threads. Maybe it was harsh and maybe wrong, but I see alot of anger with no real direction.

Teaching kids how to hunt, camp, survive, shoot, etc., beats the heck out of showing them how to slip on a condom or swallow a cucumber. It also beats testing them using mock questions and scenarios designed explicitly to instill doubt about their own sexuality and moral beliefs.

I too advocate a smaller Federal government - starting with the complete abolition of the Department of Education. However, as long as the Government's hands are in the pie, I'd rather they advocated to public schools the teaching of useful subject matter, which might include, by the way, WHY the Second Amendment exists. Less someone might think it's a matter of "opinion", I'd recommend an in-depth study of the historical scene transpiring at the time it was written and adopted and also a study of the writings of the authors and advocates to show what their mental reasoning was at that time.

So, teaching kids to survive and hunt is one thing, but in my mind, as they advance in years, they might also learn how to use a weapon for self-defense. If our public school system can arbitrarily determine that a 14-year-old girl has a need for learning how to have promiscuous sexual relations, then cannot the "other side" arbitrarily determine that a 14-year-old boy learn how to use a firearm in self-defense? Especially when, the day they make me King, I will pass a law dictating that ALL persons own and know how to use a firearm....... and knives. ((( :D )))
 
shecky said:
Then why did you mention it?
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Good question. Not sure why. To whine? Mental masturbation? I don't know. Maybe the same reason you posted your original question?

I guess we could all go back to your originally posted question and just say, "No." Let you give it your best shot at figuring out why the planned program for the West Virgina school system is a very good thing that should be implemented in many other states.
 
By that standard any collective effort on the part of a people to advance the "common good" is socialisim
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If you mean the definition I quoted, it's Karl's. He was, of course, in favor of collective effort -- mandated by the all-powerful state.

But he opposed malaria.
 
the wv program seems like a good idea to me.
btw, lots of boy scout councils include rifle shooting in their summer camp programs
 
Thomas Linton said:
If you mean the definition I quoted, it's Karl's. He was, of course, in favor of collective effort -- mandated by the all-powerful state.

But he opposed malaria.
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Thomas, you're right, but as I'm sure you know, Karl wasn't a socialist. What we define as socialism could never be powerful enough to advance his ideas. The complete power of the State is what Marx was advocating - Communism - complete dominance, albeit with a strange twist: that the people would just love this idea and implement it to perfection without the need for "government". Idiot.

Also, Marx was much more than advocating collectivism for the common good, he also espoused the complete destruction of the moral values of society, all in the name of hatred for what he called the "bourgeoisie". Depending on the slant of the paper written about him, some called him the world's greatest thinker. I say he suffered a mental disorder.....
 
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