Charcoal is the superior fuel for bladesmithing!

Tim, im not trying to change the thread either, just making a simple statement;-)

Im gonna try making some charcoal from white oak. I have a bunch of fallen trees around my house thanks to our lovely hurricanes. This will give me a reason to finally cut them up...AND it will make my wife happy as well.

Matt.

PS..here is a funny steel comment-
52100 makes good bearings, 5160 makes good springs.

[This message has been edited by RMLamey (edited 30 December 1999).]
 
Before Vegas made him switch to LP, Dr. Hrisoulas primary fuel was coal. He used charcoal for some limited applications, such as stainless. He said in his first book that it's a great fuel, but expensive. So far I've used charcoal and LP, and I've preferred the LP for convenience. I do have to watch the steel a lot closer with gas, though. I've never had a problem getting a reducing atmosphere with gas, though. That's been one of the easiest things about it.

------------------
Oz

"Never try to teach a pig to sing.
It's a waste of time and it annoys the pig."
-Lazarus Long
Check out my egostistical homepage!
http://www.freespeech.org/oz/
 
I'll just throw this out there and y'all can make of it what you will. It is by no means proof of anything simply an informal observation.
I have forge using a Tim Zowada designed natural gas forge, a homemade propane forge, a traditional coal forge and a few different charcoal forges. After hardening the blades in the same basic manner, I test them by putting them edge up in a vise. With a fine toothed file I stroke across the edge to check the hardness. When I do this to the charcoal forged edge the file skates across almost immediately but with the other fuel forged edges it noticably takes longer before I hit the hardened steel. Why? Decarburization with the other than charcoal fuels is my guess. But I know there could be a lot of factors involved. Maybe I don't know how to use the other fuels properly. I have had enough experience to feel this is not the case. But I've been wrong many times before. I don't feel I held any predjudice towards the other fuels when I was using them. On the contrary, I was trying to produce the best blade I could in that moment.
 
Osbourn,
I usually buy El Diablo brand charcoal. It is a product of Mexico and is oven baked Mesquite. This isn't anything special just quality charcoal lump and is what I can find easily locally. It currently costs me $80 for 400 pounds delivered to my door. There are a few sites on the web that sell charcoal in bulk and shipped to your door. I haven't bought any of this because I have a local source. But if a smith wanted to use charcoal I think he/she could find it with a little effort. And what I'm using is definately cheaper than gas or coal. I haven't tried to figure out what the costs would be for a smith outside of my locale. But I think it could be found at least as cheap as gas with a little searching.
Tim
 
hey lively,

to answer your quenstion: yes, i have used ash as a flux.
i do find it a lot better than borax ... i just dont like the idea of using something so potentially corrosive...

the best flux that i have found is ash with a little bit of white sand .. plain .. simple .. works for me .. and is perfectly free where i am.

D.
 
Tim,

Great subject, and I've already sent you an
e-mail. Keep up the good work of sharing knowledge. Most people think that blacksmithing went the way of the buggy whip.
By the way, anyone know were I can buy one? Just kidding (about the buggy whip)
smile.gif
.
Happy New Millinium to one and all.
 
Dementia,
I haven't tried using sand yet but will soon. Why do you add it in with the ash? Do you think it lowers the melting point of the flux? Does it make easier welds than just straight ash? When you get to the welding temperature do you see any sparks?
Tim
 
I have learned using charcoal for making damascus from a french guy (Jean-José Tritz) living in hamburg. First time i saw him he gave a damascus forging demo using a small forge made from an angle iron cage holding fire bricks. The blower was an old household aspirator (dust collector) used the other way, so it will blow. It was connected to a normal light dimmer to control the air flow. He forged a 224 layer billet from 52100 and old file steel. He started with a 2-pound 7-layer billet and it took him about an hour to get the result, using only hand hammers. No slag inclusions, no cold shuts, very few flux used.
Im my shop i have a propan forge for my everyday use. But if i am forging anywhere but in my shop i like to use charcoal, because it is readily available, not expensive, easy to start and very clean to burn. I use a forge setup as described above. It is in general a forge desing which has been used in japan for centuries. And they have made wonderful blades for centuries using nothing but charcoal.
I know another professional french bladesmith (Ludovic Marsille) who uses nothing but charcoal to forge his blades, too.
And you will never have any problems with them environmentalists, too, because you are not using fossile fuels, but something with a no-problem co2-balance.
biggrin.gif


Achim
 
Lively...

i find the sand is a good flux, it coats nicely and has the ability to run into places that might get a little too hot.

so combined with the ash, they seem to compliment each other well. the ash protects any places that the sand flux has run from.. and the sand runs into places that the ash seems to have missed.

this is just my little theory behind things.. i have had good goings with it so far... but i am not all that experienced .. i am just a beginner really
biggrin.gif


you still do get some pretty little sparkles coming out, but i find it greatly reduced.

D.
 
Achim,
If we get any more charcoal users here we're going to have to start an alliance of international charcoal heads. Jean-Jose' and Ludovic are both professional bladesmiths using charcoal full time? More proof charcoal can be used by the professional bladesmith both efficiently and effectively, and therefore as a fuel is worth serious consideration by beginner and elder. http://www.neotribalmetalsmiths.com
 
Dementia,
Sounds like a little sand added in with the ash is worth trying. I like the idea of a more sticky flowing flux. I'm wondering about the visible sparks at welding temperatures. Does the sand (silica) let carbon out a little? Why is there sparks with sand and none with straight ash? It's not that one is better than the other, It's just that it would be nice to know. May be there is a compromise between ash and borax with your mix. One that's more fluid than just ash and less corrosive than borax. Has anyone tried rice straw ash or bamboo ash? From what I understand these plants and others have silica in them. So if you burn a big pile of this would yo get silica ash? And would it behave like ash/sand flux? Sand is easy to come by here in Tucson, but I haven't seen any rice straw. Experienced input from anyone will be helpful. You may be a novice bladesmith Dementia, but you have focused on a path less traveled and your insite is valuable here. We are all explorers in this almost forgotten fuel.
 
lively
yes, both Jean José and Ludovic are professionals using nothing but charcoal and Jean José is working with a kind of "japanese" forge and doing a lot of damascus and laminated (3 layer) steel work. But charcoal is not the only "classic" material they use. Both are no real friends of stainless steels. In fact, Jean José only works stainless on request and Ludovic refuses to use it. For him it's carbon steel only.
Personally, i prefer to work with carbon or low alloy steels, too. And i like to make knives with 3 layer blades where the outer layers are made of bog iron either from very old sources (old houses) or made in charcoal run ovens.
By the way, there will be the 4th world congress of blacksmiths this year in Cloppenburg, germany. It will be a meeting of metalsmiths from around the world. There will be african tribal smiths, too and we will be making our own iron and forge it. For further information just email me.

Achim
 
Achim,
That's great. Has anyone heard of any other international makers using charcoal full time. One of the arguments I've run into over the years is.. "if charcoal is such a great fuel then why don't you ever here of anyone using it to make a living on" I imagine theres some Japanese makers doing it. Or maybe Indonesians? I'd really like to know if there's anyplace left where the tradition of forging on charcoal never stop. A cultural tradition that goes back many generations. And how many makers are left doing it. So far I know of 2 American dudes, and 2 French dudes. Hey Dementia, who taught you how? You mentioned 5 charcoal forges where you go, that sounds like a great set up. Any full timers there?
 
lively
You are right about the japanese forgers. Up to now i have never seen a japanese sword smith who doesn't work full-time with charcoal. There are over hundret of them in nippon. And i am sure that there are lots of others, smiths making tools and other things, working full time with charcoal, too. For centuries it was the only possibility for the japanese to do so, because on the islands of japan they have no natural coal ressources. They even imported large amounts of charcoal from corea and other countries for a lomg time.

Achim
 
I live on the east coast and would like try charcol.Can any one give me a source of where to buy good charcol such as El Diablo brand charcoal? thanks for any info.
 
Lively ---

i dont know the great deal behind why the sand will let sparks through but not the ash.
i use mostly the white sand, with a little of ash.
i find the the reasons behind the flux is to keep it clean and to make sure that the metal doesnt burn.... putting too much crud as a flux is a bit of a risk in my mind.. it just gives the chance of more impurities being placed into the blade.
and we all know what a pest that can be.

as for where i learnt.. well .. i am learning from a man named Jack O'Brien.
he is a full time bladesmith, who i was able to contact about 5-6 months ago... and from there i asked him to teach me all that he could... hence the journey begins.

he uses nothing but charcoal in his forging.
personally i know of .. hmm .. 3 other bladesmiths that still use charcoal.

where i go to do my forge work is a blacksmithing guild of sorts... so most arent really bladesmiths... more blacksmiths than anything.
there are 2 (plus me) that are full timers at that forging group.

Hope this helps any.

D.
 
Hi all!
Maybe it is a bit off topic or we should start a flux thread, but from my studies i can tell you some interesting things about the different fluxes.
In general there are three functions which are performed by the flux.
The first is to cover the whole metal you are working with, so little to no oxygen shall reach the surface and no scale will be build up.
The second is to flush away the existing scale while welding the surfaces together.
The third is to de-oxydize the surface and thus changing scale, which is iron oxide, to iron.
Molten silica, like sand, can only do no. 1 and 2, as it can cover the material and flush, but not react with oxygen. So you may get some sparking, if the cover is not perfect.
The rice straw ashes only perform no. 1 and 3 as it covers the surface but doesn't melt and it deoxydizes to a certain degree as it is allmost never completely reduced by burning.
The only flux performing all three tasks is anhydrated borax, as it melts, covers the surface, reduces iron oxyde to pure iron and takes the impurities with it when welding.
Have you ever seen bright lines in a block of damascus made of only two (dark) hardenable steels? This is the pure iron left by ashes or borax after the welding process.
By the way, the reducing properties of charcoal and charcoal ashes may have the same reducing effect on the welding surface thus leaving the same bright line.

Have a nice day!

Achim
 
Lively,
In my previous mail, I forgot to mention that the guy who taught me bladesmithing is a professional, and that he uses only charcoal. His name is François Morier, from Switzerland. He makes custom knives but also sells damascus billets to other bladesmiths.
Claude
 
Experimented with adding sand in with the ash flux today. It welded well. It was more fluid and sticky but it did seem to let the carbon out more in the form of sparks compared to straight ash. It worked for what I was doing though. Tai Goo and I are welding some antique wrought iron and cast iron into a billet. The sand helped keep the cast iron chunks stuck in place easier. Now we will go back to straight ash to weld the folds and finish the billet. If we decide then that we need to release more carbon we'll add sand in again. So it's nice to have the extra control.
 
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