Chemistry vs. MagnaCut

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Danke42

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Feb 10, 2015
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OK in the effort to keep the other thread from derailing an or posts being subject to alien drone abduction this thread is to discuss chemistry.

With the issues that Crucible industries are facing there is a lot of worry about some of their best steels being lost to the knife community forever.

Niagara Special Metals has noted they are sourcing steel with the same chemistry to produce knife steel orders with.

So where does the magic happen? At the very first time the powder is sprayed in? When it's rolled into sheets suitable for knife blanks? Or later when the knife makers shape and grind and heat treat?

Nature or Nurture time folks. MagnaCut is the example but it's for sure not the only desirable steel they make.
 
Good thread, each foundry has its own processes, some of which are public and others which are proprietary, wouldn't those proprietary processes impact the end results even though the chemistry is the same?
 
shinyedges said:
Good thread, each foundry has its own processes, some of which are public and others which are proprietary, wouldn't those proprietary processes impact the end results even though the chemistry is the same?
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For sure, it's like pizza. It all uses the same general ingredients but where does the magic happen? Is the very best ingredients but with a sloppy cook using a microwave or is it possible for someone to use regular ingredients and elevate them for a much better result?

They say there is no bad pizza but I don't know if that's true.
 
Well, then using your analogy, isn't the proof in the pudding? If the results of their efforts are sub-par, they either up their game or fall by the wayside. (Assuming that there are others to pick up the ball and run with it.) Nobody wants to stick with inferior product. But everyone appreciates improvement, incremental or otherwise.


There, that's enough metaphors for one post.
 
Danke42 said:
For sure, it's like pizza. It all uses the same general ingredients but where does the magic happen? Is the very best ingredients but with a sloppy cook using a microwave or is it possible for someone to use regular ingredients and elevate them for a much better result?

They say there is no bad pizza but I don't know if that's true.
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Can confirm, there is bad pizza 🤣.

I'm not privy to every process that Carpenter, bohler or Crucible use, I am aware they utilize different processes. Maybe despite the differences in process they are all equal and identical?
 
Is there a set quality standard for metals? Some agency that verifies certain lot and batch type checks to make sure no one in any step is receiving a substandard material? I have to assume some check what they purchase but I also have to assume there are businesses that assume they are getting what they paid for from previous business relationship deals.

I'm vaguely remembering a Knife Steel Nerds article where Larrin was trying to get some Chinese 8CR and was sent 440C or something like that. Here's hoping that's a rare occurrence.
 
I would expect every step in the process is important, but the real question is how much difference does each step make to the end product? As others have noted, the analogs of M390 and of CPM-Cruwear are virtually indistinguishable from the originals. I would expect the same from MagnaCut and MagnaWhatever in the future.
 
SharpBits said:
I would expect every step in the process is important, but the real question is how much difference does each step make to the end product? As others have noted, the analogs of M390 and of CPM-Cruwear are virtually indistinguishable from the originals. I would expect the same from MagnaCut and MagnaWhatever in the future.
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In my experience, 20cv behaved different from m390. So many factors though it's difficult to nail down why.
 
I believe that most, if not all, large customers of products like steel do their own testing to confirm compliance with their specifications. You would not last long if you were playing fast and loose with steel formulations.
 
Maybe most of the magic happens during product (standardized) validation ?

For example, as a user, I like PD#1 just as much as CPM Cruwear. Clearly, the recipe is different - micromelt vs CPM.

If two pizzas taste the same, who cares how they were made ?
 
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1095 Carbon Steel • Alpha Knife Supply - AKS

1095 Carbon Steel For Sale • Largest variety of thicknesses, lengths and widths of 1095 Billets and 1095 Bar Stock• Fast Shipping & Excellent Prices!
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One of the best ways to make excellent knives is to use repeatable and reliable processes and materials. 1095 does not meet this criteria. The problem is the specifications are too loose. The composition shown above is for this specific batch of steel.
This is the standard specification for 1095:

Carbon:0.950 - 1.050
Chromium:0.000 - 0.400
Manganese:0.300 - 0.600
Molybdenum:0.000 - 0.100
Nickel:0.000 - 0.400
Phosphorus:0.000 - 0.025
Silicon:0.150 - 0.350
Sulfur:0.000 - 0.025
There are five elements where the acceptable percentage ranges from 0.000% to a maximum of .400%. This is a ridiculous amount of variation. Loose tolerances is the primary reason why we previously chose not to stock 1095 for years.

- BREAK -

Went with 1095 since I was hoping it would be simple enough info to sort through. And it's right there, a complaint against specifications being too loose. Though I'm still not sure who sets the spec or tolerance. Does every foundry have a Q/A standard slightly different than the next? Or is it that the minute amounts involved don't actually do anything positive or negative enough to matter?
 
CPM steels that are not heat treated for optimal...whatever attribute you want to enhance (Toughness, edge holding) or with poor geometry will not cut as well as ingot steel that has been optimized. Some knifemakers specialize in a single type of steel but have spent careers bringing the best from that steel. Geometry cuts, chemistry tells you for how long, and heat treatis what brings out the optimal attributes/characteristics based on both.

In short, raw steel is nothing...it's a material...the knife becomes a knife when it is ground, heat treated and sharpened.
 
I'm going to guess and say that Dr. Larrin Larrin has properly set the specifications for his steels so that any steel maker who follows the recipe and can utilize the correct processes will be able to produce quality Magna* steels.
 
navman said:
In short, raw steel is nothing...it's a material...the knife becomes a knife when it is ground, heat treated and sharpened.
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But it's the first domino in the row. Knock one away and you don't engage the next. Same as you could start with CPM-Magnadamantinediamondium and if you don't heat treat it right you still fail. So if the chemistry of the steel is off from the start then you can heat treat it to the specified criteria but are you going to end up with the best product you could?

It's the same to me as when people want to pipe up with "proper heat treatment" being so important. Well... yeah. I really want think if they are selling an end product that everything was proper from start to finish. Who watches the watchmen?
 
Maximumbob54 said:
But it's the first domino in the row. Knock one away and you don't engage the next. Same as you could start with CPM-Magnadamantinediamondium and if you don't heat treat it right you still fail. So if the chemistry of the steel is off from the start then you can heat treat it to the specified criteria but are you going to end up with the best product you could?

It's the same to me as when people want to pipe up with "proper heat treatment" being so important. Well... yeah. I really want think if they are selling an end product that everything was proper from start to finish. Who watches the watchmen?
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There is testing every step of the way, by various parties. Any good knife maker will test the heat treat, any good mill will test the raw steel before processing, any good foundry will test the raw materials before committing to a melt.
 
SharpBits said:
There is testing every step of the way, by various parties. Any good knife maker will test the heat treat, any good mill will test the raw steel before processing, any good foundry will test the raw materials before committing to a melt.
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I think the question here is if cpm3v as an example, as we know it, was made with specific processes unique to Crucible, how does difference processes from let's say Carpenter, impact 3v? No difference? Slight difference? Doesn't changing the process have some form of impact? Does each company's proprietary process have no impact in the end bar of steel?

I'm in complete agreement that the end shaping and heat treat matter. We're talking about what gets shaped and heat treated.
 
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