Chinese knives

[PURPLEDC]

its a clone of a sinkevich custom knife. im sure he's happy to see these (sarcasm). please guys stop sharing clone stuff on the forums. we dont want to advocate steeling of IP's.

For one its "stealing". Two, I will decide what I will and will comment about. Third, the knife has no protected IP that was violated. Fourth, If you think someone violated the rules report them and let a mod do the modding. Thanks.

 

[tiguy7]

View attachment 706415 So it's a Chinese knock off of Russian knife? Is this threatening American jobs? I might have bought the original, but I couldn't locate an outlet. Based on my inspection of the knife, I hope they become more available in the consumer market. I also hope that Dmitry can enforce a design copyright and collect some royalties.
PURPLEDC, have you looked at the 2 tone model?

 

[TheEdge01]

I don't have a problem with buying Chinese made knives if the quality matches the price. China made cutlery developed a bad reputation because most people are used to seeing"Made in China" on cheap gas station knives, or most of the ones sold in bulk on Cutlery Corner. Unfortunately, most consumers aren't willing to pay premium prices for USA made knives let alone ones from China. Until I became a member here, I didn't even realize China produced high quality knives, other than making products for American brands like Spyderco, Kershaw, etc.

 

[henkh]

This. Exactly. I've held back on the few Kizer and WE knives that have caught my eye specifically for this reason. If they had an established solid customer service arm, my opinion might change... but a large scale CS program costs a fair amount of $$$, and I'm pretty sure that would be reflected in the price.

WE has an USA representative to take care of service/warranty issues. As well in Europe (which is me..) They chose to service the customers with local guys.

 

[PURPLEDC]

View attachment 706415 So it's a Chinese knock off of Russian knife? Is this threatening American jobs? I might have bought the original, but I couldn't locate an outlet. Based on my inspection of the knife, I hope they become more available in the consumer market. I also hope that Dmitry can enforce a design copyright and collect some royalties.
PURPLEDC, have you looked at the 2 tone model?

I have seen it in pics and videos but i have not seen it in person. Not being a snob because i think cheaper knives certainly have an appeal. But i usually dont mess with anything under the hundred dollar mark unless its a titanium knife that seems too good of a deal not to check it out. But if things like that interest you luvthemknives is a youtube channel you should check out. He reviews anything and everything.

WE has an USA representative to take care of service/warranty issues. As well in Europe (which is me..) They chose to service the customers with local guys.

And i can attest to the fact that the service is great. I didnt have warranty issues as none have needed it but i did get awesome service when needing to deal with them about another matter.

 

[K.O.D.]

Variety is the spice of life. With the exception of Spyderco, I like to have only one knife from a company. When the Chinese manufacturers (other than Kizer) start making smaller knives. I know there are a few offerings from each, but either I don't care for the design, or they are priced out of what I'm willing to pay for a production knife.

I just bought a knife on the exchange, which is slightly longer, and a bit heavier than I prefer. It's S90V, so I figured I'd give it a shot. The WE 705 is priced just beyond what I had set aside.

 

[Dan of Bazz Clazz]

Wait! Put down your torches and pitchforks, I mean the good kind. I just realized that I'm carrying a lot of Chinese knives of one type or another lately, due to a new round of acquisitions being mostly made in China.

I like a bunch of American Chinese knives, here are a couple I really like (yes, I know that the Southard is made in Taiwan, but China considers it part of China and so it squeaks in on a technicality):

Spyderco Southard & Todd Begg Steelcraft Mini Bodega

Russian Chinese knives are great too, here are a couple of favorites:

CKF S.S.E & CKF Ratata (both customized by Stasbiker)

I have some German Chinese knives too:

Boker Plus Kwaiken & Boker Plus Urban Trapper

And I can't forget the Chinese Chinese knives:

Stedemon Shy (original version) & Kizer Laconico Gemini

The rotation of knives I carry most is up to being something like half Chinese made at this point, at least in terms of some or all of the manufacturing.

Compared to five years ago, that's a big shift for me. Has anyone else found they're carrying more Chinese knives these days?

I just got a C.J. Herbertz which I am happy with. I also have a couple of Boker's. Mine are Magnums. I have the Senior which has become my "gentleman's knife" for when I am actually dressed up as a gentleman. It mostly sit in the box. How do you like the Trapper? It is on my list to obtain.

I have found Chinese knives to be hit or miss, even when purchasing from the same brand. I have Boker Magnum or Plus knives that I love, and I have had knives that were definitely poor quality. One did not have the blue coloration it was supposed to on the screws and frame. Another, that I got that I did not order, had a chisel grind on it. Awful. I also recently got a folder from a different brand where the lock mechanism failed to lock the blade, 5 out of 6 times or so. The replacement, was far better. Like anywhere else, there is good and bad. China seems to be harder to weed out the bad.

 

[ThemGunsThough]

I started off with a fake spyderco pm2 and I thought it was the best thing since sliced bread until I started really putting it to use and started sharpening. It feels nice and meets the eye test but is crap holding an edge. I ended up buying more chinese knives and it was hit or miss. A few expensive clones $50+ have been really nice though such as the ZTs and microtechs. Love my RAT 1 in D2, just cant beat it dollar for dollar.

 

[Dan of Bazz Clazz]

The problem in this discussion is where does the line get drawn. It really seems to be different for everyone. Some dont care if a design is borrowed as long as no counterfeit logos are used. Others say nope, if it copies anything its not ok. Problem with the later is so much copying is going on in the whole world of knives that its hard to just point the finger at china and cry foul. Especially when paid dealers of this forum sell clones and certain knife companies of this forum copy designs all the time. Boker being a HUGE offender in that regard. Microtech is another. Supposedly brous has taken ip as well. I just see too much forgiveness to companies not based in china to sit there and put all the blame on them. My viewpoint is its not even illegal to buy counterfeit goods for personal use. I personally dont like counterfeits. But i also dont subscribe to the idea that if you make a knife you can tell another person they cant make a knife that looks like that. If that was the case ninety percent of people starting as knifemakers would be chastised for ripping off randall and loveless.

If you cant legally protect it with IP laws then its not actually IP. Some just go so far with it if its a chinese knife but you bring up other instances and its nothing but crickets chirping because there is no rational defense for why its ok for some and not others. But even if i fly to china and buy a counterfeit knife i can bring it back and use it and no law was broken. My knife hobby is not my life. Its a hobby. Knifemakers, dealers and manufacturers are not my personal friends i feel an obligation to defend or go to bat for. They provide a product that i am buying. No relationship is taking place. So just buy what I like. If I choose to buy a clone instead of the genuine article its because i have no plan and never did of buying the original. So they werent getting a sale either way. But even then its a design that has no legal protection for a reason. And with no logos or other actual protected IP i dont see any harm in people enjoying a product they bough for personal use.

China has a huge reputation for not honoring IP of all sorts. Not just knives. Software, Music, Movies, Fishing tackle, the list goes on and on. The Chinese govt. does little or nothing to enforce international IP laws and treaties. My brother had a company put out of business because they sent some of their software over to china as a favor for evaluation without thinking. Their IP was no longer secret and no longer controlled just by them. Guaranteed the Chinese govt. copied it as it went across the firewall border china has. But China is far from the only one.

The fishing industry is crawling with copies and knock offs from someone else's idea that took off. Typically a new hot lure hits the market every 2-3 years. The entire industry makes their own version of it within 6 months. And those copies are from companies that manufacture in the USA or China, or anywhere else.

Part of the problem is a legal one. Lots of loopholes to slip through. For starters, getting a patent or a trademark or a copyright does not get you protection. (IP or Intellectual Property is the catch all term.) It only establishes "priority" You were the first and registered it. You are (hopefully) able to protect your investment and IP, and stop others from using your IP. The big catch, and it is 'UGE, is YOU have to enforce your rights. Meaning you have to find the party who is stealing your ideas, and sue them to get them to stop and recover damages. The government isn't going to do it. The FBI isn't going to investigate it. You have to do it all! How many companies, yet alone people, have the resources to carry on that kind of protection of their IP. Very few. And if you have to go up against one of the "big boys" in the industry, you are simply out of luck. They will out spend, out lawyer, and outlast you almost every time. That's why a company like Pure Fishing, ie: Berkley et al can get away with copying everybody elses hot lures every year and get away with it. Too rich and too powerful.

So that is the big picture, but far from the only one. For a product like fishing tackle, or knives, your problems are compounded because there are so many other loopholes for a copycat to use and skate free. For instance, you may have a patent on a knife, the Patent office granted it, for what ever reason. If you patented it because of the look, or the shape, or the color, or the size, you are out of luck. None of those qualities can actually be protected under patent. You can't patent a shape. You might be able to protect it under a trademark, but that is also expensive, and you would have to trade mark every product you make. Too expensive.

But let's say that you do have a completely new design, never been done before. Maybe you decided to make a magnetic floating bearing on your folder and you patented that. 6 months down the road, there are cheap knockoffs showing up on your dealers shelves. You track them down and send them cease and desist letters, yada, yada, yada. They keep going and you sue them. Open and shut case right? NO! they only have to show they have changed the design as little as 10 percent and they are found to have not violated your patent. In the case of knife shapes, a slight variance in shape, or design, and they are off the hook. That is why you see a thousand copies of the hot lure next season, each with their own little twist on the shape, or design, or action. So you can't win in court even though it is blatantly obvious they have copied your idea. But you can't patent a shape!

One of the few areas of product and IP copying where the law does protect you and police step in, is when there is a definite intent to defraud the public by putting out counterfeit goods. But that means they are selling it with the exact everything about your product. Same look, size, color... but most important, with your name and trademarks. They are selling it as if it was yours. That is where the fraud comes in. But it is not like police forces have a lot of resources to put into departments like that when violent crime is the main public concern.

Sorry for the long winded post, but I see so much of it and there is little that can be done to control it. Particularly when major countries like China are doing little to nothing to control it. Add to that, many of the manufacturers over there do contract or production runs for many companies. Factory that makes knife components will make the components or knives for many different brands. I can't be the only one who has noticed the virtually identical knife being sold under 3-4 brand names. It falls under this who topic.

But what I am referring to is not the direct copying of a brand's product. I am referring to a company that offers knife manufacturing to other knife companies or brands. For example. Guy has a little knife company, wants to start a new line of cheaper knives. Does he go design a whole new line, and figure out manufacturing, etc? Maybe not. Particularly when he can go to a Chinese factory, and they simply pull out a catalog of all their products and components. The guys looks and sees Knife Model XKY, 8" long, spring assist flipper with frame lock. Wants to add that to his product line as his own design. "No problem" says the factory salesman. "You have lots of changes that can be made. Here are 5 other versions of that knife we sell to other company's. You can't get a knife like any of those, but if you want to make a change or 2, no problem! How about a matte finish on the blade, we anodized the frame, Black is good, and we put on copper colored scales? How do you like that? We already have those components in stock, can ship 5000 by next Tuesday if you have your packaging ready to go. You'll be selling your new exclusive knife design by the end of next month. Did you want the edge smooth or serrated?"

None of this violates any IP rights anywhere. So a fair percentage of duplicate knifes are not necessarily counterfeited. But a lot unfortunately are. With little in the way of protection or recourse to the proper owners of the IP.