Chinese quality and offerings better than North American?

C

clearkevin

Joined
Oct 7, 2014
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Hey Guys
I recently raise this point in a video and was surprized by the reaction thought I would bring it up here. First I'm Canadian so buying knives from my home country is not an option. That said I do tend to prefer North American made stuff. But (and its a big but) I am really loving the overseas high end stuff. Kizer with their colaborations Reate with high end high quality offerings, We Knife Company, Rike knives, and even a few others. My grip is this other than ZT I don't see a lot of US manufacturers even trying to compete in this market where is the US version of the We Knife Company 601? Or CKF Morf, or the Reate Torrent. These are all designs I love and just don't see much by way of a US made option again other than ZT. Midtech's don't help much because they are way more expensive these days plus they are nearly always just plain Ti with a stonewash on everything (and now many US makers are having Chinese manufacturers make their midtech/ high end production). One last thing which is price point is not the main thing as ZT can produce amazing stuff for just over $200. So it seems for a time at least I'll be satisfying my urge for titanium frame locks by going to overseas sources (that is after I get a 4 max).
 
Just like Japan and Taiwan before, China is transitioning from all cheap stuff (though there is plenty of that still) to being capable of making production products at the same level of quality as in North America.
 
I don't know about better, but anyone with the newest technology and machinery can produce knives to a very high quality. Its all to do with investment.

High tech cutting CNC machinery and cutting tools can transfer anything from the design software.
Steels and metals come off the shelf to industry standards.
Heat treatment can be very accurately repeated in large batches to industrial standards.
Most finishes are pretty standard, well bought off the shelf.
Assembly isn't particularly complex.
The rest is design and marketing.


Add it all up its not magic, just business, industrial manufacturing. For the complexity then the price gives excellent returns on investment so long as you can sell plenty of them. Just happens that China with its cheap labour, land, taxes and borrowing can now produce high quality industrial goods. China has seen massive investment so have the latest manufacturing toys and been able to sell around the world as well as their domestic market. For manufacturing they now have the scale and breadth to source all the components required and most importantly of a high enough quality. Wasn't the case a few years back but now they pretty well have it covered.

The rest is economics, and politics. Tax systems and standards of living vary from country to country. Is China doing brilliantly? There are flaws in their model one of which there is no pension pot as of yet. There is a whole bit more but then we would be needing to do the micro and macro economics.

High tuned manufactured goods that have little human input. Something we are buying into more and more. However, perfection gets a bit boring as it loses its soul, which is why custom stuff remains interesting. Some craftsmen can compete with machines, but the premium for the labour adds up to a huge ticket price. China has craftsmen too but they aren't the same costs. Japan too has craftsmen, as do many countries. The price reflects the standards of living.

One of the reasons that investment into knife manufacture has been huge is that there is a market paying high prices. Get it right and its therefore profitable, so long as you can beat the competition with some product advantage, whatever that is.

Just the way it is.

At the end of the day its your disposable income and your call how you spend it. Most of us buy into "a story" as that usually adds value to us.
 
GREENJACKET said:
I don't know about better, but anyone with the newest technology and machinery can produce knives to a very high quality. Its all to do with investment.
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Yup. Its all very simple, yet people its some vast global economic conspiracy, or some life-and-death battle between good and evil, when the bottom line is...well the bottom line.

If something makes sufficient profit, Chinese industry will invest in making it and will make it. Just like any other country's industry in the world throughout history.

Simple.
 
GREENJACKET said:
Is China doing brilliantly? There are flaws in their model one of which there is no pension pot as of yet. There is a whole bit more but then we would be needing to do the micro and macro economics.

Just the way it is.

At the end of the day its your disposable income and your call how you spend it. Most of us buy into "a story" as that usually adds value to us.
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Great post.

Sad thing is, less and less companies offer pensions in the states and many that still do, warn their employees that their pension program is in the red.

The Chinese have a custom of taking care of their family elders (parents, grandparents) and often live with them until death unlike here. It's just a different world there in some respects and not every solution we have is for the same problems. So while any part of the world can benefit with our pensions, SS, and 401K's... In places like China it is less critical.
 
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Did the Spanish do good for the Aztecs; American Europeans do for Red Indians; British in India; Boars in Southern Aftrica??? Most of it was business based. Last time we had a war with China it was over selling them Opium. At different times there are different business advantages. Cultural and political systems differences that may or may not give for a time a business edge. Who knows what is best, or which will last? Lets try not to fight about it too much..

I like where I live and the standards of living. I wouldn't want to live in China. Doesn't mean I can't trade. A lot of their great high tech machinery was bought from USA, Japan, Europe.
 
Region of manufacture seems like a pretty irrelevant point to bring up, to be frank. Individual manufacturers compete with each other worldwide, so who cares where they come from?

There are US manufacturers who have incredible fit and finish and there are US manufacturers that really need to just stop trying. Same goes for China, Taiwan, Italy, Germany, Russia...
 
I don't think you could be more wrong. I've seen and held many amazing made in Canada knives.

I would say start visiting some gun and knife shows and to spend some more time in the Canadian sub sections here.
 
Danke42 said:
I don't think you could be more wrong. I've seen and held many amazing made in Canada knives.

I would say start visiting some gun and knife shows and to spend some more time in the Canadian sub sections here.
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I'm not saying there aren't any just not as many or as competative
 
First I'm Canadian so buying knives from my home country is not an option.

Well not an option doesn't leave much room to compete. Second that Retate Torrent is about 2x the price of the $200 ZT price you've noted.

Set a price in USD and outline some basic must have features and I will bet you get some suggestions. At least within North America.
 
As a buyer I want value for money or at least know that I'm paying over the odds but don't care because I want it, and I want it now...

Knife world there has never been so much choice. Never been so much discussion at so much detail. Stuff no one cared much about when a knife was just a knife, some a bit better than another, but not a lot in it. Now we discuss even the irrelevant bits. The variety, steels and quality have never been better. Heck, we have fashions, and y tube critics and commentators. How sexy is a ceramic bearing??? Many manufacturers are building for their collectors base. Knives are like watches and we know for time keeping its hard to beat a G-Shock. The price barrier has been blown apart too. Once a sebenza was though extremely expensive, now there are loads in that kind of price bracket. Sensibly a lot of the world still thinks $50 is plenty for a knife, $16 better.

If there is a market then someone will take advantage and if the competition can't keep up then fool them. Maybe its time Randal made iphones?? Or benchmade made something that touched a bench (they probably still do)??

Thankfully I'm still trying to wear out quality knives I bought in the 80's and 90's... it was easier then as there were only a few really good ones to be had. Don't have many from Sheffield though.. just not good enough.
 
Chinese high knives are as good as anything I have seen from anywhere. My Reate Hills is great, and my Kizer Rogue has incredible fit and finish, and is Seven smooth for $116.
 
marcinek said:
...and let the politics commence.

Who woulda seen that coming? :(
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LOL. How naïve is it to not recognize that international trade and politics are inextricably intertwined EVERYWHERE? Those that blithely dismiss that there is a larger and overarching political dimension to this topic, just because of their own purchase history "proving" otherwise, are delusional.
 
There are some good machine shops in Asia nowadays and less things being made in the USA. If you buy an American car for example almost 100% of the parts come from Asia, Mexico, etc.
 
Kizer and Reate look like ZT spin offs to me. I would rather American when I can. Those Chinese brands don't have the same soul as Spyderco, ZT, Emerson, etc. If a Chinese company developed an original style that didnt look like they took a ZT and tweaked the details I could understand why people would buy them. Then again I dont really think about it that much, just my two cents.
 
I know this forum has people from all countries on it so I will try to word my response with out offending anyone.

To the OP, you said:

"My grip is this other than ZT I don't see a lot of US manufacturers even trying to compete in this market"

Benchmade, Southern Grind, Hinderer, Emerson, Hoback, Chavez, Strider, Chris Reeve and now even DPX is working furiously to make their first folder in the USA. These companies are growing and trying to make their knives more available to the public.


My personal issue with any knife coming out of China is that there are also a ton of Counterfeit knives coming from the same country. These fakes have identical looking boxes even with the makers actual address on them. The markings on the blade are almost perfect. These are being made in China and shipped everywhere. This garbage hurts U.S. manufacturing. I personally have no way of knowing that some of these factories that are now making these higher end knives did not get their start making knock offs. Until the counterfeit market from China goes away there is no way I will support a single product from their.

Just my 2 cents.
 
oxman198 said:
Kizer and Reate look like ZT spin offs to me. I would rather American when I can. Those Chinese brands don't have the same soul as Spyderco, ZT, Emerson, etc. If a Chinese company developed an original style that didnt look like they took a ZT and tweaked the details I could understand why people would buy them. Then again I dont really think about it that much, just my two cents.
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Lol, China doesn't have a Chris Reeve or Sal Glesser, or Rick Hinderer . All Americans. :D:thumbup:
 
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