Chinese quality and offerings better than North American?

So once again we've drifted.

The point of the thread is not to denigrate China or knives made there.

The OP stated that that there was not a knife he could buy in Canada; there are no options up here. Then he said that he liked US stuff but the quality of knives made in the USA was lacking.

The were requests for disambiguation but all we got from the OP was praise for Norinco copying iconic American firearms (which by all accounts they do very well).

I declare myself baffled.
 
Never have so many large pic files been so utterly devoted to absolute garbage. Well, I'll concede there are those Lindsay Lohan shoots out there that compete as a complete waste of pixels. . . .

"Ethics apart. . ." The only way to go "all in" for PRC made knock-offs.
 
Really? Because we just did this last month and there sure is less made in China than Mr Anderson was ranting about.

So Cold Steel has more Chinese models than Kershaw? CS has a ton of non-cutlery items that I am sure are made in China, but the bulk of their knife lineup is made in Taiwan.
 
It seems that a lot of folks want to cherry-pick examples of poor-quality or ugly or ripped-off designs, straying out of the knife realm in the process, and trying to treat all of it as comparing apples to apples. But that's just not how it is. For instance:

- There is very little in common between (for instance) a $20 Gerber made of (allegedly) 7Cr13MoV and FRN and a $200 Kizer made of S35VN and titanium except that 1) both are knives and 2) both are manufactured in China. Nobody on this forum is legitimately so ill-informed as to actually think the level of product quality or customer service is on the same level. Pick whatever brands you like, but seriously, there are clearly different categories of knives at vastly different price points, whether you're making them in China or the US or wherever else.

- We are knife snobs, by and large, but the target market for inexpensive Chinese knives isn't knife snobs. Mall ninjas, perhaps, but usually it's going to be consumers who just need a cutting tool, preferably at a low price. Now, when you turn that upside-down and look at brands like Kizer, Reate and others, their products aren't sold at Wal-mart. They aren't inexpensive for the typical knife-as-a-tool crowd, or even for a lot of true enthusiasts. These are brands that, at least early in their existence, depend on a positive first impression from "knife guys" in order to break into the market.

- Pointing out another person's hypocrisy when typing on a foreign-made device, driving a car built overseas or from overseas parts, or living in a home filled with imported products loses some impact if you consider that this is a knife forum, and that most of us long ago moved past needing knives and on to buying them for things that most consumers can't relate to: knife collections, one of every limited edition from a particular manufacturer, or the infamous EDC rotation. We have largely taken it beyond buying tools. Maybe not toys, but in excess of what we need for simple cutting purposes. But can you buy a PC or phone built entirely in the US from US parts? Or a TV? Even a car, when you break it down to all its components? At some point availability and practicality become factors. But buying a knife is, for more of us, a hobby that some would consider a luxury. You have the choice to buy American or not. With some types of products, that's no longer the case.

- I think we all know, deep down, that the "CHINA" stamped on a knife doesn't represent the collective Chinese workforce. Seriously, that's getting to be a tired talking point. The horse is long dead.

Personally, I prefer to buy American, or if not American, then from an American ally. Our trade with China is mutually beneficial, but I'd rather not buy products made by Chinese state-owned/state-run companies, whose profits go back to their government. I don't want to buy gas that came from Venezuela, where privately-owned operations were seized by the government. There are plenty of other examples. I understand the sentiment, but I think it's a stretch to think that the higher-end Chinese knife manufacturers fall into this category. Maybe some of the literal nuts and bolts were made in those sorts of factories, but if one takes at face value the stated materials in these knives (S35VN, D2, etc.) then those aren't being sourced from Chinese providers anyway.

There are plenty of reasons not to want to buy products made in one country or another, but some of you are inventing reasons to criticize other people's choices when your own personal convictions are pretty flexible if it suits the argument.
 
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It seems that a lot of folks want to cherry-pick examples of poor-quality or ugly or ripped-off designs, straying out of the knife realm in the process, and trying to treat all of it as comparing apples to apples. But that's just not how it is. For instance:

- There is very little in common between (for instance) a $20 Gerber made of (allegedly) 7Cr13MoV and FRN and a $200 Kizer made of S35VN and titanium except that 1) both are knives and 2) both are manufactured in China. Nobody on this forum is legitimately so ill-informed as to actually think the level of product quality or customer service is on the same level. Pick whatever brands you like, but seriously, there are clearly different categories of knives at vastly different price points, whether you're making them in China or the US or wherever else.

- We are knife snobs, by and large, but the target market for inexpensive Chinese knives isn't knife snobs. Mall ninjas, perhaps, but usually it's going to be consumers who just need a cutting tool, preferably at a low price. Now, when you turn that upside-down and look at brands like Kizer, Reate and others, their products aren't sold at Wal-mart. They aren't inexpensive for the typical knife-as-a-tool crowd, or even for a lot of true enthusiasts. These are brands that, at least early in their existence, depend on a positive first impression from "knife guys" in order to break into the market.

- Pointing out another person's hypocrisy when typing on a foreign-made device, driving a car built overseas or from overseas parts, or living in a home filled with imported products loses some impact if you consider that this is a knife forum, and that most of us long ago moved past needing knives and on to buying them for things that most consumers can't relate to: knife collections, one of every limited addition from a particular manufacturer, or the infamous EDC rotation. We have largely taken it beyond buying tools. Maybe not toys, but in excess of what we need for simple cutting purposes. But can you buy a PC or phone built entirely in the US from US parts? Or a TV? Even a car, when you break it down to all its components? At some point availability and practicality become factors. But buying a knife is, for more of us, a hobby that some would consider a luxury. You have the choice to buy American or not. With some types of products, that's no longer the case.

- I think we all know, deep down, that the "CHINA" stamped on a knife doesn't represent the collective Chinese workforce. Seriously, that's getting to be a tired talking point. The horse is long dead.

Personally, I prefer to buy American, or if not American, then from an American ally. Our trade with China is mutually beneficial, but I'd rather not buy products made by Chinese state-owned/state-run companies, whose profits go back to their government. I don't want to buy gas that came from Venezuela, where privately-owned operations were seized by the government. There are plenty of other examples. I understand the sentiment, but I think it's a stretch to think that the higher-end Chinese knife manufacturers fall into this category. Maybe some of the literal nuts and bolts were made in those sorts of factories, but if one takes at face value the stated materials in these knives (S35VN, D2, etc.) then those aren't being sourced from Chinese providers anyway.

There are plenty of reasons not to want to buy products made in one country or another, but some of you are inventing reasons to criticize other people's choices when your own personal convictions are pretty flexible if it suits the argument.

+1.
Well put! I've tried to say the same thing many times, just not as well.
 
Consider practicing what you preach and filling your grocery cart with as much Chinese sourced food and consumables as possible next time you shop for food, toothpaste, etc.

Also, let's at least be honest here and not pull arguments/points out of our rear ends. You are way off the mark regarding the labeling of "Swiss" on watches. Current Swiss law states a watch can only be considered Swiss and labeled "Swiss" if its movement is Swiss and encased in Switzerland with final inspection in Switzerland. To be a "Swiss" movement the movement's components alone (no assembly labor or other costs) must account for not less than at least 60 percent of the movement's value. Even at that there are still Swiss watch manufacturers still making in-house movements (movements not made even by other Swiss companies).

If you notice in my post I didn't state my numbers as fact. It is a fact though that just because the movements are assembled in Switzerland doesn't mean that's where the movement parts come from. They are outsourced and then assembled so they are able to label them "Swiss Made". Although that's a different argument for a different forum and I was simply making a point, which is true, and bringing it to light here. Which is that a lot of US made labeled stuff is not made up of completely US made parts.

Also I'm not quite sure what you mean by practice what I preach here. I'm not the one stating that I only buy US made products. I enjoy driving my BMWs while I talk on my IPhone on my way home to enjoy lots of amenities that are in my house and made over seas. I try to support my country whenever I can, but unfortunately I find that we are behind in a lot of areas so I take my business where I will get the highest quality products.
 
Here in Macedonia I would pay $ 2 for HT knife .Complete HT and + cryo is in that price if I need that .Imagine in China how much cost this and compare to USA price , we can not beat them :)


Re: Peter's heat treat

Ok Brad was gone for the day, but I spoke to another gentleman that answered the question.
Pricing has been posted here before, but just to refresh:
1-3 blades are $28.50 per blade
4-20 same or similar steel $114
$2.75 each blade over 20

He told me AebL, cpm-154, and ats34 would be run in the same lot. Looks like this is going to be the way I go.

Thanks for your help!
 
I had in hand some chinese knives from Reate. They're better quality in fit&finish than Spyderco, Emerson or even some Benchmades. But even Cold Steel folders made in Taiwan have better f&f than Spyderco from Japan for example. If American companies still want to sell knives in Europe, they should offer something more than just "made in USA". But here we are - Benchmade has higher prices and still the same quality or even worse than 10 years ago, thank to God they've still good customer service in comparison to few other companies from USA.
 
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