Chisel edge

[MatthewSB]

My Spyderco SE blades have chisel edges.

Good point!

But you still have to sharpen the same total bevel width. The single bevel grind still has the same total angle and traverses the same total thickness of metal...there's no difference in that respect between double bevel or single bevel knives of equal stock thickness and included angle. You're doing the same amount of sharpening but on one side of the knife rather than both.

It's easier for many people to match one zero degree edge and one 40 degree edge, than a pair of 20 (or whatever precise angle) degree edges.

Sharpening is harder for some than others, and some bevels are easier for beginners. The first knife I ever got "scary sharp" was an Emerson Commander, it took two minutes with a ceramic rod to go from very dull to shaving sharp.

 

[unit]

It's easier for many people to match one zero degree edge and one 40 degree edge, than a pair of 20 (or whatever precise angle) degree edges.

This may be your opinion, but I would share that if many people find it easier to grind steel consistently at two different angles (0 and 40) then MORE than many people will find it easier to match only one angle (20 degrees).

Further, it is actually REALLY time consuming to grind a face at 0 degrees, because you would have to grind a VERY large face (essentially from the apex to the spine). This necessitates removal of steel over a MUCH larger area than most double beveled knives. More area, more steel, more time...and the longer you try and maintain an angle, the more difficult it becomes due to fatigue...this will become evident if you ever really try it

HOWEVER, with either a chisel ground knife or a more symmetrically ground knife a person can achieve "sharp" by using a fairly wide range of angles so long as they are larger than the previous grind. i.e. on your chisel grind a person could grind anywhere from slightly larger than 40 degrees to about 50 on one side and anywhere from slightly larger than 0 to perhaps 10 degrees on the other. Similarly on the V grind they can grind anywhere from 20 to 30 on each side and get the knife sharp easily. It is important to note that both examples are now no-longer true chisel grinds though

SOOO, if you sharpened your Emerson on crock sticks and got it sharp quickly, you must not have actually ground the back face at 0 degrees. In doing so, you actually ground the knife toward a V-edge. Do this enough times and you will eventually see the bevel you are creating on the back side. It still is not symmetrical, but its not exactly a 0 degree angle either.

 

[RX-79G]

This may be your opinion, but I would share that if many people find it easier to grind steel consistently at two different angles (0 and 40) then MORE than many people will find it easier to match only one angle (20 degrees).

Further, it is actually REALLY time consuming to grind a face at 0 degrees, because you would have to grind a VERY large face (essentially from the apex to the spine). This necessitates removal of steel over a MUCH larger area than most double beveled knives. More area, more steel, more time...and the longer you try and maintain an angle, the more difficult it becomes due to fatigue...this will become evident if you ever really try it

HOWEVER, with either a chisel ground knife or a more symmetrically ground knife a person can achieve "sharp" by using a fairly wide range of angles so long as they are larger than the previous grind. i.e. on your chisel grind a person could grind anywhere from slightly larger than 40 degrees to about 50 on one side and anywhere from slightly larger than 0 to perhaps 10 degrees on the other. Similarly on the V grind they can grind anywhere from 20 to 30 on each side and get the knife sharp easily. It is important to note that both examples are now no-longer true chisel grinds though

SOOO, if you sharpened your Emerson on crock sticks and got it sharp quickly, you must not have actually ground the back face at 0 degrees. In doing so, you actually ground the knife toward a V-edge. Do this enough times and you will eventually see the bevel you are creating on the back side. It still is not symmetrical, but its not exactly a 0 degree angle either.

You don't sharpen the 0 degree side. I don't understand your post.

 

[Bludgeon]

You don't sharpen the 0 degree side. I don't understand your post.

Your not alone.

 

[Tripton]

You don't sharpen the 0 degree side. I don't understand your post.

So you just sharpen the one side and leave a nice big burr on the edge?

 

[RX-79G]

So you just sharpen the one side and leave a nice big burr on the edge?

Here's a link:
http://emersonknives.com/blog/sharpening-your-emerson/

Basically, you don't have to sharpen the entire bevel to remove a tiny burr.

On any knife.

 

[Danketch]

Well folks as they say the truth is in the pudding. For those familiar with Daniel and his thoughts about the famous maker he respects who also makes chisel grinds. A very respected enforcement academy uses a chisel tanto to show agents the lethality of knives. They take a bullet proof vest, drop the tanto on it and it easily cuts right through! Light saber stuff dude...grind away Daniel ... the force be with you
Don

As an amateur grammar Nazi, I think it is the proof of the pudding, is in the eating. Sorry, but this drives me crazy. Like people saying for all intensive purposes instead of for all intents and purposes.

I do not own any chisel grind knives, so don't have much first hand experience, but am looking forward to getting a left handed kiridashi or two for wood-working.

 

[unit]

Here's a link:
http://emersonknives.com/blog/sharpening-your-emerson/

Basically, you don't have to sharpen the entire bevel to remove a tiny burr.

On any knife.

That link makes my point really well.

Turning the knife over, you lightly stroke or kiss the backside just to break the burr free. This only takes a couple of light passes. Incline the sharpener slightly so you don’t scratch the surface of the blade and are only touching the very edge

By inclining the sharpener slightly, you are honing at an angle slightly greater than 0 (as I mention in my post above).

I am sorry you did not understand my post, but your statement above about not addressing the entire bevel is EXACTLY in line with what I was suggesting that most people do...they micro bevel...or perhaps not-so-micro bevel after they have done it a few times on the same knife.

Regardless, once you put the hone on the back side of the knife and start removing metal at an angle greater than 0, you really do not have a chisel edge any more. That said, it really doesn't matter because there is no magical properties inherent of a true chisel ground edge.

 

[Lycosa]

Ahh... the glorious chisel ground knife thread.

 

[unit]

Ahh... the glorious chisel ground knife thread.

It is a classic! right up there with CRK vs. Strider

 

[Lycosa]

Trudat!!
And sometimes, Emerson.

 

[unit]

Trudat!!
And sometimes, Emerson.

Polished vs toothy, anyone?

 

[Bludgeon]

I received my first Emerson today, a ZT0620. Great knife, wish it was a chisel grind but a nice introduction to an Emerson design none the less.

 

[shinyedges]

I can't find any info on the zt 0920 any links?

I'm receiving my first chisel grind today, a ZT920. Thanks for all the sharpening tips...I think?

 

[Bludgeon]

I can't find any info on the zt 0920 any links?

Oops, I ment ZT0620. http://www2.knifecenter.com/item/ZT...ife-black-elmax-blade-g10-and-titanium-handle

 

[snippy]

So you just sharpen the one side and leave a nice big burr on the edge?

Put sandpaper on a hard flat surface, make sure it is tight, place blade gently onto "perfectly" flat sandpaper, gently push forward. Burr gone.

Small fixed blade chisel grinds make sense to me. Folding knives and large fixed blades not as much as I don't have anyone to fight.

Eric

 

[unit]

Put sandpaper on a hard flat surface, make sure it is tight, place blade gently onto "perfectly" flat sandpaper, gently push forward. Burr gone.

Small fixed blade chisel grinds make sense to me. Folding knives and large fixed blades not as much as I don't have anyone to fight.

Eric

In theory, this is grinding at a 0 degree angle to the back face of the blade. I wonder how many people actualy do this successfully. Particularly on blades where a coating is applied. Not because they will scratch the coating, but because the coating has a finite thickness that is basically obstructing your access to the burr...unless you grind if off or raise the spine and abandon the 0 degree angle.

 

[RX-79G]

That link makes my point really well.




By inclining the sharpener slightly, you are honing at an angle slightly greater than 0 (as I mention in my post above).

I am sorry you did not understand my post, but your statement above about not addressing the entire bevel is EXACTLY in line with what I was suggesting that most people do...they micro bevel...or perhaps not-so-micro bevel after they have done it a few times on the same knife.

Regardless, once you put the hone on the back side of the knife and start removing metal at an angle greater than 0, you really do not have a chisel edge any more. That said, it really doesn't matter because there is no magical properties inherent of a true chisel ground edge.

Not only does it not matter if it is "truly" a chisel edge, but removing the burr at an angle doesn't necessarily mean you need to remove more that the burr and get down under the plane of the flat bevel just because the hone is at an angle. All you're doing is breaking off a lip pushed over from the bevel on the other side.


It appears that you understood all that, so your post about sharpening the entire 0 degree side was just in jest, or something.

 

[unit]

Not only does it not matter if it is "truly" a chisel edge, but removing the burr at an angle doesn't necessarily mean you need to remove more that the burr and get down under the plane of the flat bevel just because the hone is at an angle. All you're doing is breaking off a lip pushed over from the bevel on the other side.


It appears that you understood all that, so your post about sharpening the entire 0 degree side was just in jest, or something.

I have addressed several concepts with my posts in this thread. One dealt with the supposition that honing at 2 different angles (0 and 40) was somehow easier than honing at one (20). "Ease" is relative and so is the definition of sharpening. I maintain that it should be easier to learn to hone the knife at one angle (same for both sides) than to do 40 on one and 0 on the other.

This brings us to two more concepts to consider, sharpening and type of knife (both really need to be consiered together in my opinion, becasue if we are taking about knives that are truly chisel ground to the apex, then we need to discuss sharpening also.

Are we talking about actual honing, or just maintaining (something that is done periodically to prolong the period between actual honing). If we are to discuss some action other than honing that maintains a bevel between honing sessions (like in the link you shared), then we are not talking about a blade that will be chisel ground to the apex following these actions.

Some have brought up sushi knives and I will bring up Kamisori. These are examples of truly assymetric grinds and truly chisel ground apexes. Anyone worth their salt would not simply "remove a burr" with an abrasive held at an angle from the back face of the blade. Doing so will micro-bevel the apex...anyone that claims otherwise, would be hard pressed to demonstrate their truly amazing ability to anyone that has actual understands these types of blades ("amazing ability" is in total jest...it cannot be done).

A related concept that I have questioned is the supposed superiority that a chisel ground edge is alledged to possess over a more symmetrical edge. This concept may be debatable in the most specialized applications (such as those I mention above), but then it has to be assumed that these blades are properly honed and not addressed with the techniques in the link you provided.

So any notion of superiority of a chisel edge is (at least) reduced by these sharpening methods (in the link you provided)...because the action of using an abrasive at any angle other than 0 on the back face will reduce the assymetry of the apex via micro-bevel.

So, in closing, if you feel that there is no remarkable difference in performance between a somewhat assymetrically ground apex on a pocket knife that is maintained as specified in the link you provided, and a typical v-edge with a micro-bevel (with similar inclusive angle) then we agree

 

[RX-79G]

I have addressed several concepts with my posts in this thread. One dealt with the supposition that honing at 2 different angles (0 and 40) was somehow easier than honing at one (20). "Ease" is relative and so is the definition of sharpening. I maintain that it should be easier to learn to hone the knife at one angle (same for both sides) than to do 40 on one and 0 on the other.

This brings us to two more concepts to consider, sharpening and type of knife (both really need to be consiered together in my opinion, becasue if we are taking about knives that are truly chisel ground to the apex, then we need to discuss sharpening also.

Are we talking about actual honing, or just maintaining (something that is done periodically to prolong the period between actual honing). If we are to discuss some action other than honing that maintains a bevel between honing sessions (like in the link you shared), then we are not talking about a blade that will be chisel ground to the apex following these actions.

Some have brought up sushi knives and I will bring up Kamisori. These are examples of truly assymetric grinds and truly chisel ground apexes. Anyone worth their salt would not simply "remove a burr" with an abrasive held at an angle from the back face of the blade. Doing so will micro-bevel the apex...anyone that claims otherwise, would be hard pressed to demonstrate their truly amazing ability to anyone that has actual understands these types of blades ("amazing ability" is in total jest...it cannot be done).

A related concept that I have questioned is the supposed superiority that a chisel ground edge is alledged to possess over a more symmetrical edge. This concept may be debatable in the most specialized applications (such as those I mention above), but then it has to be assumed that these blades are properly honed and not addressed with the techniques in the link you provided.

So any notion of superiority of a chisel edge is (at least) reduced by these sharpening methods (in the link you provided)...because the action of using an abrasive at any angle other than 0 on the back face will reduce the assymetry of the apex via micro-bevel.

So, in closing, if you feel that there is no remarkable difference in performance between a somewhat assymetrically ground apex on a pocket knife that is maintained as specified in the link you provided, and a typical v-edge with a micro-bevel (with similar inclusive angle) then we agree

You realize that all of this discussion is about general use knives and not fine woodworking tools, right?

There is no situation on earth where a tiny microbevel on the back of an Emerson or something is going to affect what you do with that knife. You need to get the knife sharp, the exact angle isn't even known, and whether it is 35/0 or 35/0.5 doesn't matter. It so doesn't matter for this kind of knife that chisel, asymmetric and symmetric grinds are all accepted as reasonable choices.

You wouldn't make a symmetric, hollow ground woodworking chisel. Knives are knives, dedicated tools are not knives.


If you want to say that fine carving tools shouldn't be treated this way - I agree. But if you are suggesting that an Emerson pocket knife stops being effective because of the world's smallest microbevel, I think you have some major myopia. You have mistaken theory for reality.


The reality is that you can take a chisel ground or asymmetric pocket knife, rub one side of it on something abrasive until a burr appears, knock the burr off and your knife is as sharp as it needs to be. It won't be ready for fine woodwork - but it isn't supposed to be.