"Cho Creep" & Habaki Style Bolster Revisited...Time For A Change?

Drdan

Drdan

Joined
Dec 24, 2003
Messages
1,390
This topic has been discussed many times. Seems like the habaki style bolsters came into fashion after a forumite sent a Japanese sword for the kamis to study. The original purpose was to make the khukuris fit the scabbards better. Below are some of the threads which were found during a search:

“New Bolster” posted by Big Bob

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=157120&highlight=habaki+bolsters

“Why The Cho Creep?” posted by christcl

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=295720&highlight=habaki+bolsters

“Traditional vs ‘Habaki Type’ Bolsters... What Are The Differences/Pros & Cons?” posted by Drdan

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=292498&highlight=habaki+bolsters

“Habaki vs. Traditional(Again)” posted by etp777

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=301826&highlight=habaki+bolsters

“Where Should The Cho Really Be?” posted by Bill Martino

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=306270&highlight=habaki+bolsters

“What Is Cho Creep?” posted by Shann

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=321742&highlight=cho+creep


About a year ago, I special ordered a 21" Chitlangi, and specifically opted for a traditional bolster, a traditionally placed cho, and a purpleheart handle. Well, I got the purpleheart handle! :D It was the Chitlangi with the cracked handle which Dan Koster wrote up as a handle crack repair tutorial. A photo is attached...

I've since ordered a custom made khukuri from a U.S. knifemaker who will make me a khukuri as I want it made. I purchased a few other H.I. khukuris since, but would love to see the "old style" bolster and a nicely positioned cho. ;) Am I a minority voice here, or are others interested?

I feel that the traditional bolster is more aesthetically pleasing, and it's well, traditional... It forces the kamis to be precise with the tang/blade junction finishing, and is stronger than the habaki bolster, which does not fit over the blade as it should. Placing the cho closer to the bolster would also allow for more of an edge and different blade shape.

The kamis are said to favor the cho creep so as to protect us from cutting our hands. :rolleyes: Get the handles right, and you'd have a locking type grip that wouldn't allow your hand to ride up the handle. If the handles being made now can be improved, or even made larger for their U.S. users, surely the kamis can make the necessary modifications.

Khukuris made that do not have the traditional bolsters or properly placed cho, etc. can mean a monetary deduction to the kami/s making them. I'm sure this issue, which has gone on for serveral years could be resolved rather quickly. I see these changes very positive steps in H.I.'s evolution, and I'm sure Aunt Yangdu/H.I. and we, the purchasers, can be instrumental in having these changes made. Does Aunt Yangdu and H.I. see any need to resolve tese issues, or is everything fine the way it is? :confused:
 
I like the traditional ones, but I have had good luck with the non traditional ones too. However I think the SHALLOWER bolster means more wood on the handle, since on some of the deeper traditional bolsters I have removed do not have the handle extending very far up in there.
 
I don't have very firm opinions about the cho creep and habaki bolster issues. From an appearance point of view, I'd probably side with the traditional look. From a user perspective, it doesn't matter to me. My khukuris just need to cut and chop like crazy...which they all seem able to do. It appears difficult to get the kamis to make changes, and so I'd be wary of asking too much. But I only infer this from reading threads from the past.

It should be fun to watch the debate...so I'll stand back now.

Jeff
 
In terms of strength, I don't think the habaki bolster makes a real difference. It is perhaps not as strong as the traditional kind, but strong enough.

The real source of the failures would lie in the heat treat process. Tangs should not crack if properly annealed (and beefy enough - remember my "counterfeit tang" Bura?), habaki or not.

Of course, you will never get the Kamis to change the heat treating process, since that is traditional...

I would like to see the habaki bolsters go, though.

On the bigger models, the large, long bolsters and cho creep should just be replaced with a bigger handle. Even on my giant Ang Khola, I can't use a two-handed grip without having one hand on the bolster and ricasso. It's annoying enough that I feel like redoing the handle and bolster to give me a longer grip.

On the smaller models, the habaki bolsters look silly, and with cho creep, take away from usable blade length.
 
I have both, and like both. I've never broken or even loosened anything on an HI khukuri. (with the exception of the white bone handles). Of course, that could be cause I'm such a little wimp. ;) So I'm not in favor of a big push to change things. The "cho creep" is something I never noticed until it was brought up on the forums. So I guess that doesn't bother me either. If the cho was closer to the bolster, that would be cool. But if the khukuris never changed at all, that would be cool too.

Gee I'm mellow. :p

Steve
 
drdan, I have seen old kukris with a similar bolster to the one you posted in the photo. I would be happy if they all came like that. I do wish that the handles had more curvature (aesthetics and ergonomics) and the cho (kaudi, whatever is the flavor of the day) got back closer to the handle (mostly cosmetics except for smaller blades).

Stevo
 
I really don't care one way or another. The khuks work just fine for me. I really like my special khuks with the traditional bolsters and small cho creep like the YCS and M43. However, I have always been drawn to my 18" WWII for a user khuk and never knew why. I figured this out a couple nights ago. I like this khuk so much because it allows me to use it in so many ways. I don't have big hands, but the long straighter handle gives me a bunch of different ways to hold the sucker. Also the cho creep gives me a place to rest my finger is such a way that when i do finer tasks with the waist of the blade my finger won't slip up as easily to the sharp part. Also, it seems to level the khuk out a bit so it's to so choppy when i want it to be slicy.
Dunno. I'm easy. Change it or leave it the way it is.

Jake
 
I like HI quality and buy them in spite of the cho creep and habaki bolster. I'd like to see both of them disappear.
I'd like to see more Hanshee curves and more acute, hardened points as well.
A modern khukuri like the Bojhpure long leaf khukuris Atlanta Cutlery had would be ideal for me. The Dui Chirra is closest, but mine is too front heavy. I went in on the first Foxy Folly run but they were way too heavy.
Right now I have an M43, WW2, Movie Model, 10" & 14" BDC, UBE, YCS and a Cherokee Rose. I love them all, but wish they'd make a lighter one with the traditional bolster. One of these days I'll special-order something like a 21" Gelbu with full tang, thinner edge, normal cho, and traditional bolster and see what happens.
 
I'm not exactly the voice of experience here, but will throw in my 2 cents (all I'm allowed today)....I've purchased perhaps 18-20 khuks in two years, and given at least half to sons and friends. I've beat the hell out of at least six, and my sons are trying all sorts of things with theirs. I purchased a couple 'blems' with cracks in handles for the cost savings, did the super-glue thing, and probably abused them the worst of all. Complaints or problems? None, Nada, not even 'wavy edges'!!!! Maybe this is not a statistically significant sample, but I fail to see a problem with the Cho or the Bolster...I freely admit that since my experience does not include a khuk with a bolster kissing the cho, I may have somehow missed the pleasure y'all are now denied. But, the one pleasure I would really like to have is to meet and shake the hand of every kami in the shop, even those just learning the trade, because I know in my heart I couldn't do as well...I'm just an 'End User', and a satisfied one at that.
 
I like both bolster styles- but it matters which khuk. Wouldn't want the habaki on a 10" BDC. I have plenty of brass furniture khuks but finally prefer steel or white metal, as brass tarnishes so quick and Ballistol® turns it even quicker. And the cho creep... yeah. Doesn't bother me on larger khuks but it just looks more better with less. 2 of my faves- 14" and 10" BDC- don't know what cho creep is. I'll take my chances on hand sliding forward- hasn't happened yet.

How about more funky chos? Like you see on JP's antiques. Shaped like a little temple or something. Easy for me to say- once you break the cho, you would have to throw the knife away.... or sell it to some non-believer as a just a knife.

Another fave is this way-cool tri-holed BAS, specially made for me as a throwing khukuri :rolleyes: :footinmou . It's marked "UB" - but in Devangari, and *may* be the only one like it.

bas3zl.jpg




Ad Astra
 
Having just removed the handle from an 18" WWII (One of Rusty's, which he had considerably reduced the handle diameter to fit his hand), I'd like to make the observation that breakage at the tang root / blade root intersection would be minimized if the kamis didn't file/grind such a sharp-cornered interface. This "step" sets up a stress riser that could be avoided if the blade tapered or "curved" into the tang profile instead of "stepping down" sharply into the tang profile. For instance, if a large-diameter round file was used to make the blade to tang transition instead of a 90-degree file, the transition would have a round "fillet," through which the stress would be evenly distributed, resulting in a more robust design regardless of bolster style.

JMO and observations; now and again the mechanical engineer peeks out uncontrollably . . . have to do something to justify the cost of four years in the mid/late '70s.

Noah
 
Please, no larger handles. There are some models I own that I can't even wrap my hand around for a secure grip as is.
 
I don't have nearly as many khuks as a lot of you here do. But I've been around since '99 and I have three Shop 1 khukuris. I do not like the cho creep and habaki bolster. They ruin the lines of a khukuri.
 
Drdan;

Almost everybody likes traditional bolsters. There are many HI products that have traditional bolsters. Recently Yangdu asked the Kamis about cho creep, and they basically said no- do you want to cut your hands? (My guess is they know our hands are larger and cho creep is one answer.) Your statement that 'getting the grip right and you won't need cho creep' does not make much sense to me. Did you look at the hand chart thread by Koster? What is 'right' within that large variation of our hand size? I am grateful the Kamis make the handles as large as they do. Mine is a regular, medium hand, and yet some of the handles are still a little too small. I'm glad HI knows this and has modified the product to suit us, the customers.

I'm perplexed why you are unable to get a HI Khukuri with a traditional bolster? Aren't the Foxy Folly's to come an example of this? From time to time we see examples of that bolster on sale at the DOD.
I"m sorry your special order did not come out as you wanted. That you accepted it anyway indicates to me it was worth the price even if not to spec. Bill hated special orders for this reason. Personally, if it were me, I'd try again when Yangdu is willing to accept such an order. With the FF's about to arrive, now may not be the right time.

I'm sure it would be fine to write Yangdu and simply say, "More traditional bolsters please." I know enough people want them to make it worth the Kamis attention to this.
I like the Habaki bolster fine. It doesn't bother me, and I've not seen evidence of failure here. None. And like others, I've hammered the hell out of my blades.


munk
 
Noah;

I agree with you intuitively about the construction regardless of the bolster style, but don't believe we have any chance of talking the Kamis into changing what they were brought up to do with tang contruction. But enough forumites do want to see more traditional bolsters and I think that's possible.


munk
 
I also think that it would be a good idea to have a rounded transition between blade and tang. It would be one of those things that is no more difficult to do than a square junction, yet would help prevent breakage. However, I still doubt that you could get the kamis to change their process.

Also, earlier I had mentioned having LONGER handles on large models, not larger handles. At least have the handle take up some of the space where the bolster is now.

I just can't see cutting my hand even if the cho was lower. If your hand slips forward the ricasso doesn't offer much of a grip to help stop it. If anything, I would feel safer since if the handle took up some of that space, I would have my second hand on the handle and not on the bolster or ricasso, making the grip more secure.

The kamis probably like the cho creep, that's one inch less of bevel that they have to forge and finish.
 
Cabbit said:
Please, no larger handles. There are some models I own that I can't even wrap my hand around for a secure grip as is.
Click to expand...


Yes. I'd like "longer" but not "larger" handles. My 30" siru's handle is very tough to grip around. My chainpuri's handle is a little longer and thinner than normal and feels really good in the hand.
 
It's a grand idea to ask Yangdu for more traditional bolsters. If they cost more, and I'm saying 'if', I'm sure you who desire this will pay for it. Whatever changes we want to see, however, I still want HI to offer it's wide variety.

How about an HI that offers modern renditions of this form, and more 'traditional' also? Is that Ok with everyone? People want more traditional bolsters, more often; but do we really want to drop the Habaki particularly if it costs less and does the same job? I don't.
HI does makes traditional bolsters now but a great many of us want more. Yvsa's been saying that the longest.
I think we should ask Yangdu to offer traditional bolsters more often.

That's my opinion.

As for handle size- the Kamis made them bigger to fit most of us. If they returned to smaller ones most of us would be out of luck. Small handles are offered- I see them on DOD. If you ordered a khuk directly from Yangdu at normal page price, I'm sure you could request a small handle size.

munk
 
Khukuri Monster said:
The kamis probably like the cho creep, that's one inch less of bevel that they have to forge and finish.
Click to expand...
I think that's the real reason behind the cho creep.
 
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