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"Cho Creep" & Habaki Style Bolster Revisited...Time For A Change?
- Thread starter Drdan
- Start date
This is over my head- but I just measured my cho on the new Villager 18" I got a couple months ago- it starts 1/2 inch above the bolster. Even if you moved it closer, we're talking 1/4 inch. I don't think anyone would give a soda cracker about 1/4" of bevel to make, or even an inch.
Perhaps in conjunction with a Habaki bolster there is even more blade left without a bevel- and this is easier for the Kamis to produce.
I think the Kamis may have moved the cho as close as they are going to. They do seem to have shrunk back closer to the bolster than they were a year ago when Bill wrote.
Offering more khuks with the traditional bolster than HI does now seems practical and do-able.
munk
Perhaps in conjunction with a Habaki bolster there is even more blade left without a bevel- and this is easier for the Kamis to produce.
I think the Kamis may have moved the cho as close as they are going to. They do seem to have shrunk back closer to the bolster than they were a year ago when Bill wrote.
Offering more khuks with the traditional bolster than HI does now seems practical and do-able.
munk
Now this is a good and interesting conversation about khuks. We all have opinions about what we want, and nobody's taking any cheap shot.
I think I like the traditional bolster and no cho creep, but I don't need every one of my khuks to look like that. I'd like longer handles on almost all of the khuks that I have handled. They seems to get too thick as the size of the khuk gets bigger, though.
Good stuff, and thanks.
I think I like the traditional bolster and no cho creep, but I don't need every one of my khuks to look like that. I'd like longer handles on almost all of the khuks that I have handled. They seems to get too thick as the size of the khuk gets bigger, though.
Good stuff, and thanks.
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munk said:
I have a few 15" khuks and they are at the "bare minimum" length for me. The 17"-18" khuks are "just right" for length. The heel of my hand is not crowding the flare, and a little handle material (3/8" or so) is revealed between thumb/forefinger and the bolster. Just right.
Noah
munk said:
The 15" AK is too short as is the BAS. My chiruwa AK 16.5-17" is almost long enough and the 18" WWII is pretty good. The 21" chainpuri is plenty big. The 30" sirupati is a good hand and a half for me, but too thick, IMO. I think the reason I think the handles are too short is because I generally find more use for smaller knives and the 12" AK and the bilton are not very useful because of the handles.
I do find that if I round off the rear edge of the handle, it doesn't bite into my palm as much, but I've only done that on a couple. Some of the handles are just too nice to mess with!
According to Dan's chart, my hands are a little bigger than avg. but not huge.
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Shann said:
Durn giants. You probably like Dune too, don't you?
:grumpy:
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I think on a Bura 17 to 18" er he puts a nice handle on them. Longer and kind of thinner.
I agree with whoever said it sometimes on the bigger ones the handle is too large. The YCS handles are not exactly uncomfortable to me, but definately not designed for extended use.
I also agree with some of the 15" ers are kinda short although proportional to the knife.
I have 2 gangas that have a lot of cho creep and habaki, yet somehow they contribute to the balance of the knife in a positive way, even though I am not really big on the ones like that.
I agree with whoever said it sometimes on the bigger ones the handle is too large. The YCS handles are not exactly uncomfortable to me, but definately not designed for extended use.
I also agree with some of the 15" ers are kinda short although proportional to the knife.
I have 2 gangas that have a lot of cho creep and habaki, yet somehow they contribute to the balance of the knife in a positive way, even though I am not really big on the ones like that.
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Well I would like to see the traditional bolsters come back as everyone knows.
I also think that the lines of the khukuri look better with the traditional styles.
As far as the habaki bolsters causing breakage, *OR* the square shoulders IMO they don't. There were just as many failures with the traditional bolsters as there have been with the habaki bolsters.
The breakage has always been traced back to Dasien and sloppy hardening, as far as I know, always.
If HI were to go back to the traditional bolster methinks the cho creep would take care of itself as the kamis do seem to have cut back on making so many an 1-1/2 away from the edge of the bolster.
*BUT* and as you noticed it is a *Big* *BUT* I'm keeping my mouth shut on this.:grumpy: Why?
Because with all the trouble the Special 17" Foxy Folly with no cho creep, non-habaki Steel Blosters and thick convex edges has been!!!!!!!
The first two prototypes were perfect except for the dayumed weight.
Then somehow the 5" handle that was changed from 4-1/2" because some were bitchin about the short handles, which fit Svashtar just fine by the way and he has a Big Hand, and suddenly the blade was 17" instead of 12" so the 17" Special turned into a light 24 ounce 22" long khukuri.
Then these last four we got had the damned brass habaki bolsters, brass butt caps, and brass chapes although everything else was absolutely perfect, weight and length and size, perfectly proportioned.
This is absolutely the *Last* Special Project I'm going to be involved in unless there is an absolute perfect model painted to represent the materials to be used produced first.
I now know why Uncle Bill was reluctant to try and produce this knife and I'm now sorry I pushed the issue even though Miss Yangdu's last words were, "We will get this order right!"
It just produces too much grief and IMO Miss Yangdu and HI just doesn't need it.:grumpy:
What we forget because of the kami's skill in producing such beautiful and wonderful blades is that they are illiterate and uneducated and are strongly opinionated in the thinking that they know what is good for us, I'm betting they are just like me and would argue with a dayumed brick wall even if it were about to fall on them about what they know, or think they know.
We're getting the thinner flat edges instead of the working convex edges because it seems Pala thinks that the majority of us use them for martial arts instead of chopping trees and brush like they are originally designed for, fortunately it doesn't take but a minute on a belt sander to fix that problem but it's still a pain in the arse.
The bottom line is that no one is going to change the way the kamis make the khukuris. They have done it this way for hundreds of years and now because of some mistaken generalities of the American People, mostly, they think we're all giants with huge hands and bloodthirsty bastards that go around using their khuks to cut people's heads off or some such outlandish thing.
I'll say this and then shut up about it for now....
You might, just might get Miss Yangdu to get rid of the habaki bolsters and good on y'all if you do.
But as for me, I'm not going to argue with success and the HI Khukuri's *Are* Successful.
HI offers enough khukuris with the old style bolsters and no cho creep too satisfy most people.
If you want a special order then pre-pay the full price and wait is my advice, hopefully it will come in as expected, but don't bet on it.
I also think that the lines of the khukuri look better with the traditional styles.
As far as the habaki bolsters causing breakage, *OR* the square shoulders IMO they don't. There were just as many failures with the traditional bolsters as there have been with the habaki bolsters.
The breakage has always been traced back to Dasien and sloppy hardening, as far as I know, always.
If HI were to go back to the traditional bolster methinks the cho creep would take care of itself as the kamis do seem to have cut back on making so many an 1-1/2 away from the edge of the bolster.
*BUT* and as you noticed it is a *Big* *BUT* I'm keeping my mouth shut on this.:grumpy: Why?
Because with all the trouble the Special 17" Foxy Folly with no cho creep, non-habaki Steel Blosters and thick convex edges has been!!!!!!!
The first two prototypes were perfect except for the dayumed weight.
Then somehow the 5" handle that was changed from 4-1/2" because some were bitchin about the short handles, which fit Svashtar just fine by the way and he has a Big Hand, and suddenly the blade was 17" instead of 12" so the 17" Special turned into a light 24 ounce 22" long khukuri.
Then these last four we got had the damned brass habaki bolsters, brass butt caps, and brass chapes although everything else was absolutely perfect, weight and length and size, perfectly proportioned.
This is absolutely the *Last* Special Project I'm going to be involved in unless there is an absolute perfect model painted to represent the materials to be used produced first.
I now know why Uncle Bill was reluctant to try and produce this knife and I'm now sorry I pushed the issue even though Miss Yangdu's last words were, "We will get this order right!"
It just produces too much grief and IMO Miss Yangdu and HI just doesn't need it.:grumpy:
What we forget because of the kami's skill in producing such beautiful and wonderful blades is that they are illiterate and uneducated and are strongly opinionated in the thinking that they know what is good for us, I'm betting they are just like me and would argue with a dayumed brick wall even if it were about to fall on them about what they know, or think they know.
We're getting the thinner flat edges instead of the working convex edges because it seems Pala thinks that the majority of us use them for martial arts instead of chopping trees and brush like they are originally designed for, fortunately it doesn't take but a minute on a belt sander to fix that problem but it's still a pain in the arse.
The bottom line is that no one is going to change the way the kamis make the khukuris. They have done it this way for hundreds of years and now because of some mistaken generalities of the American People, mostly, they think we're all giants with huge hands and bloodthirsty bastards that go around using their khuks to cut people's heads off or some such outlandish thing.
I'll say this and then shut up about it for now....
You might, just might get Miss Yangdu to get rid of the habaki bolsters and good on y'all if you do.
But as for me, I'm not going to argue with success and the HI Khukuri's *Are* Successful.
HI offers enough khukuris with the old style bolsters and no cho creep too satisfy most people.
If you want a special order then pre-pay the full price and wait is my advice, hopefully it will come in as expected, but don't bet on it.
I for one do not want the Kamis to attempt to change handle size now. It has taken awhile for them to get where they are. Putting longer handles on 15" khuks makes them....not 15" khuks.
You can't please all people about handles, but in general, the Kamis do it right. btw- I too have rounded off the point of a buttcap to make room for my hand on the smaller khuks. I want larger diameter handles on the big stuff. You can always take them down.
Drdan introduced a melting pot of ideas. It's fine to talk about them.
I think the clearest want/need/ message you could send to Yangdu would be; "Could we have a few more traditional bolsters, please?"
You add all this other stuff, well, we can sit back and watch either nothing happen or a disaster.
munk
You can't please all people about handles, but in general, the Kamis do it right. btw- I too have rounded off the point of a buttcap to make room for my hand on the smaller khuks. I want larger diameter handles on the big stuff. You can always take them down.
Drdan introduced a melting pot of ideas. It's fine to talk about them.
I think the clearest want/need/ message you could send to Yangdu would be; "Could we have a few more traditional bolsters, please?"
You add all this other stuff, well, we can sit back and watch either nothing happen or a disaster.
munk
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munk said:
My suggestion of "getting the handle right" doesn't necessarily have to do with the size of the handle, but does certainly entail shaping it differently so that the hand holding the khukuri doesn't have a tendency to slide. If the handles were slightly curved, one's hand would "lock" more into position. The kamis' concerns would then, invaribly, be put to rest...
munk said:
So am I!
I even saw the e-mails Uncle Bill sent to Gelbu, which were very specific... I have a H.I. khuhuri with a traditional bolster. I ordered a FF, but donated it to Rams Tuition Fund; I asked that one of the 4 FFs that arrived be sent to Ferguson
My favorite khukuri is the Chitlangi, and I wanted that particular khukuri with a traditional bolster and cho.munk said:
I accepted it, as Uncle Bill gave no guarantee it would come out as requested, Munk. I even throw in a temple trip for the crew IIRC. I'm having a "Chitlangi inspired" khukuri made right now which should meet or surpass the parameters requested. If not, I'll certainly see if Yangdu can have one made up for me. No temple trip for the boys this time though...
I've used a Gelbu Special with a habaki bolster really hard, and I've had no problems whatsoever with the khukuri... IMHO, the traditional bolster looks better, and it necessarily needs to have a well finished tang/blade junction to look professional. I also like the traditonally positioned cho both for aesthetics, and allowing the blade to have more edge...
I'll send Yangdu an e-mail, asking for her to consider my request.
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This is a great thread, thanks Dan. My take: the chos work for me OK, although there is an undefinable attraction to the traditional cho. The bolsters work for me OK. I would like to see more traditional bolsters, but we usually get them on the FF, and the BDC's and the Dui Chirras and the M43's, and others from time to time.
The biggest deal to me that I don't believe anyone has mentioned, is not that the habaki bolsters are any weaker or look THAT much worse, but that the Sarki's seem to have gotten quite a bit sloppier when those bolsters came along!
The bottom line is that a properly fitted scabbard that fits the entire blade and not just the bolster holds the knife much more securely. If that 3/8" of bolster is dislodged from some of the scabbards we have now, then the knife will fall out if overturned, and I have been cut at least twice by this happening. A sheathed khuk starts to fall, I make a grab for it and get it at junction of knife and scabbard, the knife continues to fall out of the scabbard and cuts the hand.
It is part of the pleasure of owning a khuk to slide it into a properly fitted scabbard, and have the blade, NOT the bolster, have a beautiful friction fit with the scabbard. The only reason in my mind for eliminating or minimizing the habaki bolster is to greatly improve scabbard fit.
I love my HI khuks, but for the most part if I want to take them anywhere where they might be knocked around, I pick one that has a properly fitting scabbard or use an aftermarket sheath.
Thanks,
Norm
The biggest deal to me that I don't believe anyone has mentioned, is not that the habaki bolsters are any weaker or look THAT much worse, but that the Sarki's seem to have gotten quite a bit sloppier when those bolsters came along!
The bottom line is that a properly fitted scabbard that fits the entire blade and not just the bolster holds the knife much more securely. If that 3/8" of bolster is dislodged from some of the scabbards we have now, then the knife will fall out if overturned, and I have been cut at least twice by this happening. A sheathed khuk starts to fall, I make a grab for it and get it at junction of knife and scabbard, the knife continues to fall out of the scabbard and cuts the hand.
It is part of the pleasure of owning a khuk to slide it into a properly fitted scabbard, and have the blade, NOT the bolster, have a beautiful friction fit with the scabbard. The only reason in my mind for eliminating or minimizing the habaki bolster is to greatly improve scabbard fit.
I love my HI khuks, but for the most part if I want to take them anywhere where they might be knocked around, I pick one that has a properly fitting scabbard or use an aftermarket sheath.
Thanks,
Norm
Drdan;
Right now some handles are curved, some are slightly curved, and some are straight. I don't believe based upon my own experience that a 'slightly curved' handle is always the answer. It depends upon the balance, length, weight of khuk, and it's intended use.
There is no 'cure all' or perfect handle for all makes and types. They vary for a reason.
Notice to all;
Yangdu is going to forward a request for more traditional bolsters. !!!
munk
Right now some handles are curved, some are slightly curved, and some are straight. I don't believe based upon my own experience that a 'slightly curved' handle is always the answer. It depends upon the balance, length, weight of khuk, and it's intended use.
There is no 'cure all' or perfect handle for all makes and types. They vary for a reason.
Notice to all;
Yangdu is going to forward a request for more traditional bolsters. !!!
munk
Sheaths? Yvsa and the oldest hands could tell us if the fit has changed since Habaki.
But this I know: many of my sheaths are a little tight. You cannot pull the blade easily. Some are a little loose. In all the hiking I've done with khuks strapped to my side, a khuk has never fallen out. If the hiking is steep and treacherous I like a tight fitting sheath. In a wood chopping khuk I'm glad I can pull the blades out easily. So, they ship to America, they expand and contract with moisture, and you have a range of fit. That other small manufacturer who I shall not name talks about the right fit. What is that? Right now there is a blade from them on my desk. It is too tight a fit for martial arts. It will not come out that easily.
munk
But this I know: many of my sheaths are a little tight. You cannot pull the blade easily. Some are a little loose. In all the hiking I've done with khuks strapped to my side, a khuk has never fallen out. If the hiking is steep and treacherous I like a tight fitting sheath. In a wood chopping khuk I'm glad I can pull the blades out easily. So, they ship to America, they expand and contract with moisture, and you have a range of fit. That other small manufacturer who I shall not name talks about the right fit. What is that? Right now there is a blade from them on my desk. It is too tight a fit for martial arts. It will not come out that easily.
munk
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Good point on the handles Munk. For my hand, I can only wish for an M43 with a straighter BGRS handle. Or the Bag Bhairab for that matter. What a utilitarian improvement. That great curved blade of the M43 complete with a handle that you can actually use better, that does not feel so awkward and curving in the hand.
I'm surprised that in the heyday of special orders there were not more requests for hybrids like this. Although maybe there were and I just wasn't here to see them...
Regards,
Norm
I'm surprised that in the heyday of special orders there were not more requests for hybrids like this. Although maybe there were and I just wasn't here to see them...
Regards,
Norm
My only "complaint" is about handle size and length, not cho creep or the bolsters, though if traditional steel bolsters are stronger that is what I would want also. I have several, fortunately only several, khuks that I feel the handle is too short or too small in diameter. However, I realize there is a range of hand sizes and what is too small for me might be perfect for others. I have tried to guage handle size from the pics posted on the DOTD and not buy anymore that look too short or small. The Bag Bhairab? is one that looks too short to me.
I did special order two GRSs with chiruwa style handles and about 50 ozs and asked for a longer handle so that I could use two hands when necessary. I basically got what I wanted so some orders do come out right.
I did special order two GRSs with chiruwa style handles and about 50 ozs and asked for a longer handle so that I could use two hands when necessary. I basically got what I wanted so some orders do come out right.
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Indeed.Svashtar said:
Fix sarkis.
I have been meaning to do a more detailed post on the following,
but the subject is up.............
At least 2 of my Sgt Karka blades
have a -swell- in the thickness of the blade
approaching the bolster.
This serves the purpose of the habaki variation,
and a lot more cleanly.
(and -may- extend into the handle for added strength)
I was very impressed by this bit of his workmanship.
This would be nice to find in all the HI khuks.
~
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munk said:
I see your point Munk. Personally, I don't see how it could not have changed, as without a habaki bolster the scabbards HAD to fit. And from my limited experience my older Shop 1 and Birghorka knives, as well as earlier pre-habaki HI knives I have bought fit the scabbards much better. I think it ebbs and flows, which is natural. A very nice carved handle AK I got a couple of weeks ago has a nice red scabbard that fits perfectly the entire length of the blade, and the habaki bolster just "clicks" gently into place that last 3/8" or so. Someone really took their time and matched it to the blade beautifully. Same with the last few BGRS's I have snagged.
My sole criterion to determine fit now, is that if I turn the knife upside down and it thunders to the ground like a nail falling out of a bucket, almost severing several toes in the process, that the scabbard is too loose.
I probably have an even dozen like that, and moisture expansion and contraction is not the reason why.I have a supply of leather that I use to glue up the throat of the affected scabbards, but that does not help hold the entire blade, just the 1/2" at most of blade at the throat. Not an ideal solution, but it works for the most part.
Conversely, a too tight scabbard (and I agree about that other mfr) is even worse in some ways as you have to use sometimes excessive force to remove the knife which can be dangerous. I have one older Shop 1 AK that is so tight I have to wiggle it back and forth and pull very hard steadily, and it is always a struggle to get it out. That problem is also much harder to work around.
Regards,
Norm