Choils, when do they make sense?

The finger choil is the main thing that turned me away from an esse4. I'd rather had more handle than be required to place my finger in that small choil to gain a full grip where part of my finger was slightly in contact with the cutting edge.

Thou I kinda liked it on the esse6 thou, and a sharpening choil is very beneficial for contacting the entire edge. Otherwise on some knives over time and several sharpening sessions you end up with a slight recurve.
 
Exactly my point. If the blade is well matched to the handle, why would you need less cutting edge ? It may work for some people, why not... but I see only a "need" for that feature on a huge blade ( understand "ricasso", "unsharpened heel", finger choil", whatever...) because it lends some versatility to an otherwise very specialized tool.

You would sacrifice cutting edge for control, if you liked/needed that sort of thing....

If you have a 4 or 5 inch blade, and no choil, you have very little control at the tip for tasks that involve more precision.

A ricasso, aka sharpening notch is just that, it allows you for easier sharpening because the edge ends before you get to the handle.....lets not confuse this with a finger choil......
 
The finger choil is the main thing that turned me away from an esse4. I'd rather had more handle than be required to place my finger in that small choil to gain a full grip where part of my finger was slightly in contact with the cutting edge.

Thou I kinda liked it on the esse6 thou,

You can have all the handle you want, it won't change the fact that your index finger will still be 4 inches from the tip....
 
Let's change this up a bit.....

Your index finger is the only thing that really controls precision.
If you are using something like an axe or hammer, your index finger does very little, most of the work you do with tools like that involves force, and the control part is generally controlled by your arms.

Let's look at a pencil.
Great example...
First, try to draw a line or circle without using your index finger as part of the grip.
Next, try writing your name holding the pencil as far away from the tip as you can.
Then, try it even halfway down....

Point is, you have very little control because when it comes to finer work, your index finger needs to be close to the end of that tool.
Take an exacto/utility knife as an example. Very short blade (usually an inch or less) great control.

The purpose of a choil is to give you the ability to move your index (control finger) closer to the tip, while still allowing you to keep the standard grip (something the "pinch grip" does not allow)

The end result is the ability to have much more control over the tip and the front section of the edge for work that involves more precision.

Whether that is important to you is a personal thing, but if you have tried a knife with a well designed choil, let's say an SMF, you will easily understand the point.....

I understand that you can have one or the other, but compromising a good design rarely accomplishes either. If someone wants a compromised design, that's cool, I'm sure they have their reasons. I still don't understand a 5 inch blade with a ricasso/choil combination that leaves a 3 inch cutting edge. Can you not be precise enough with choking up with a pinch grip on a 5 inch blade?

Do people really need super fine whittling ability with a 10-12 inch long, super thick utility knife? I can get pretty precise with all of my knives with a less than 5 inch blade with no choil. I don't foresee ever needed to carve my initials in a tree with a battle mistress. I'd be more inclined to cut the tree down with it.

I still can't wrap my mind around it other than a maker that someone likes does it and the buyer comes up with the justification, however irrational. If someone simply likes the look of it and don't mind the hassles it causes and finds it to useful in one or two scenarios while compromising 5 more, then to each his own. I guess it's just a YMMV type of thing. One man's trash us another man's treasure?
 
You can have all the handle you want, it won't change the fact that your index finger will still be 4 inches from the tip....

It may still be 4"from the tip, but atleast with a larger handle and no choil my finger wouldn't be sitting partially on or near the edge..
 
You would sacrifice cutting edge for control, if you liked/needed that sort of thing....

If you have a 4 or 5 inch blade, and no choil, you have very little control at the tip for tasks that involve more precision.

A ricasso, aka sharpening notch is just that, it allows you for easier sharpening because the edge ends before you get to the handle.....lets not confuse this with a finger choil......

In your opinion. I find the myself feeling the opposite.

I find I have more control when my hand is in a natural grip shape (fingers all together, whereas a choil separates them). For detail work THAT close to the tip that I somehow feel I need more control, the pinch grip works great, because those tasks are usually quite delicate. Alternatively, you can support the blade with the tip of your other thumb if you want (since most of the time you're holding whatever you're working on with your off hand anyway). Both of these provide more control and safety than a choil. The choil also moves you what... an inch at most closer to the work? Both of the above ways put you far, far closer than that.

And a riccasso is from my understanding the flat/unsharpened portion of the blade forward of the handle, but before the blade edge starts. Frequently in this area is where you will find a finger choil, although they are not the same thing, nor is a ricasso a conventional choil/sharpening notch/Spanish notch.

The Kabar 1217 has both a ricasso, and a "sharpening choil" if that helps any.

Anyway, I know its a preference thing, so I'm not offended when people say they like them. I just find that I don't feel like I sacrifice ANY control of the tip without one.
 
One knife I do find the finger choil useful and unobtrusive is the tops BOB. Gives you a place to securely choke up a lil without sacrificing the cutting edge.

8pRVec2.jpg

MkqKhm4.jpg
 
You would sacrifice cutting edge for control, if you liked/needed that sort of thing....

If you have a 4 or 5 inch blade, and no choil, you have very little control at the tip for tasks that involve more precision.

A ricasso, aka sharpening notch is just that, it allows you for easier sharpening because the edge ends before you get to the handle.....lets not confuse this with a finger choil......

JR88 I do not mistake "ricasso" and "sharpening notch" because both have their very rightful uses. I am having a hard time, though, understanding why a "shortish" blade (4" to 5") should have a "finger choil" in the blade. I could voice it as "If the knife is too big for yer hands, take a smaller one....
 
I've wanted many Spydercos that I passed on because of the huge choil. Alas, I make an exception for the Sage 2.
 
Use that pinch grip when shaving bark from a branch or log and you will slip.

Use a knife with the bevels ground back very close to the handle and you won't need to pinch it or choke up on it. You will have excellent leverage and control... by holding onto the part that's meant to be held onto ;)

Naturally, it's up to the user. We all have our own preferences, and that's fine.
 
The huge fingerchoil in many capable and very nice (EDC sized...) blades turned me off for good.
 
Use a knife with the bevels ground back very close to the handle and you won't need to pinch it or choke up on it. You will have excellent leverage and control... by holding onto the part that's meant to be held onto ;)

Naturally, it's up to the user. We all have our own preferences, and that's fine.

A puukko is not an ideal all around use style of knife, which is pretty much what you described. A properly designed blade with a finger choil can eliminate the requirement to carry a small knife for detailed work and a large knife for more coarse work. A simple change in hand position allows you to instantly go from power chop strokes to fine small amounts of material removal. Like chopping a stick to make a stake, then using more fine movements to refine it. Same goes for notches.

A properly designed choil will save time and is more safe than having to keep changing knives or have two out at the same time.

I can see the confusion though if someone thinks they will do power strokes to chop a branch to length for a stake using the choil, then choking down and not using it for the finer carving duties.

The pinch grip, even with a puukko isn't going to remove dense hard material anyway. You will still need to wrap your fingers around the handle to put some power behind it. It won't take but a few slices of dense hard material with a pinch grip before someone changes their grip. Like I said before though, it works great in the kitchen. Other than that I don't see a reason for it. It's probably the same reason you do not see a choil on a kitchen knife. The pinch grip works perfect on a kitchen knife, it's not needed in there.
 
A puukko is not an ideal all around use style of knife, which is pretty much what you described. A properly designed blade with a finger choil can eliminate the requirement to carry a small knife for detailed work and a large knife for more coarse work. A simple change in hand position allows you to instantly go from power chop strokes to fine small amounts of material removal. Like chopping a stick to make a stake, then using more fine movements to refine it. Same goes for notches.

A properly designed choil will save time and is more safe than having to keep changing knives or have two out at the same time.

I can see the confusion though if someone thinks they will do power strokes to chop a branch to length for a stake using the choil, then choking down and not using it for the finer carving duties.

The pinch grip, even with a puukko isn't going to remove dense hard material anyway. You will still need to wrap your fingers around the handle to put some power behind it. It won't take but a few slices of dense hard material with a pinch grip before someone changes their grip. Like I said before though, it works great in the kitchen. Other than that I don't see a reason for it. It's probably the same reason you do not see a choil on a kitchen knife. The pinch grip works perfect on a kitchen knife, it's not needed in there.

I don't disagree with your statement. Would you comment on the knife in the original post?
 
A puukko is not an ideal all around use style of knife, which is pretty much what you described. A properly designed blade with a finger choil can eliminate the requirement to carry a small knife for detailed work and a large knife for more coarse work. A simple change in hand position allows you to instantly go from power chop strokes to fine small amounts of material removal. Like chopping a stick to make a stake, then using more fine movements to refine it. Same goes for notches.

A properly designed choil will save time and is more safe than having to keep changing knives or have two out at the same time.

I can see the confusion though if someone thinks they will do power strokes to chop a branch to length for a stake using the choil, then choking down and not using it for the finer carving duties.

The pinch grip, even with a puukko isn't going to remove dense hard material anyway. You will still need to wrap your fingers around the handle to put some power behind it. It won't take but a few slices of dense hard material with a pinch grip before someone changes their grip. Like I said before though, it works great in the kitchen. Other than that I don't see a reason for it. It's probably the same reason you do not see a choil on a kitchen knife. The pinch grip works perfect on a kitchen knife, it's not needed in there.

More than just Puukkos have edges ground up close to handle. Also, James isn't talking about using the pinch grip for "hard roughing out of material". That's what the real handle is for, because it offers a full grip.

The pinch grip is to get great control of the tip for delicate work (fine carving where the chord of the knife is too wide to get where it needs to go, removing splinters, cleaning under fingernails, etc). Using your offhand to help control the tip (use the thumb), or using a pinch grip puts you directly over the tip. If you use a choil on a 5in knife, your finger/hand is still a minimum of ~4in from the tip. And the difference gets larger if you change that to a 8-10in blade where you are still at least 7-9in from the tip.

The argument for a choil seems to make more sense for a larger knife, where it helps change the balance point to something more manageable for close up work. But, alternatively, you can just use the knife differently for fine tasks just as easily. You can swing the knife into a stump edge, then use the now fixed position knife (as its stuck into the stump), and move the material instead of the knife (similar to the knee lever grip/cut, but with the blade supported by the stump), just as a "for instance".

Additionally for the size knife the OP (and presumably yourself) are talking about, lacks the ability to chop to chop well (4-5in blade). Using "power chops" aren't going to work well, and what ends up happening in a knife this size is that its longer in OAL than needed without doing either task particularly well.

The irony is that a knife with a choil needs a choil MORE, because the edge is so far away from the handle. So I can see how using the normal handle position might feel a bit useless for fine work on a knife with a choil.

Anyway, like I said before. Its a personal preference thing. I just feel they don't make much sense for most types of blades, so I avoid them on my knives.
 
Knife makers (factory) tend to follow a typical pattern in their knives. In the case of ESEE fixed blades, the main difference between blades is the length and thickness of the blade stock. I like the finger choil on the ESEE 4, but I'm generally not all that enamored with the knife overall. But I have not forced myself to like it with rigorous testing or use either. Honestly, the choil is narrow, and might be a little dangerous using it unless you are paying a lot of attention to what you're doing.

As far as the OP's original post, I like the choil on knife #1 that appears to be a Becker BK-15 with ESEE markings. I don't recall ESEE making a trailing point design. It is precisely the kind of knife that one might want to choke up on the blade a little. I don't care at all for the next couple of knives.

I really like the Randall influence (aka copies) that Blackjack makes. However, I think the ricasso/choil may be a bit wide on the smaller 124 model due to the length of the blade at just a bit over 4". I think this design is simply a carry forward on the Blackjack classic pattern scaled down and probably un-necessary for me.
 
Knife makers (factory) tend to follow a typical pattern in their knives. In the case of ESEE fixed blades, the main difference between blades is the length and thickness of the blade stock. I like the finger choil on the ESEE 4, but I'm generally not all that enamored with the knife overall. But I have not forced myself to like it with rigorous testing or use either. Honestly, the choil is narrow, and might be a little dangerous using it unless you are paying a lot of attention to what you're doing.

As far as the OP's original post, I like the choil on knife #1 that appears to be a Becker BK-15 with ESEE markings. I don't recall ESEE making a trailing point design. It is precisely the kind of knife that one might want to choke up on the blade a little. I don't care at all for the next couple of knives.

I really like the Randall influence (aka copies) that Blackjack makes. However, I think the ricasso/choil may be a bit wide on the smaller 124 model due to the length of the blade at just a bit over 4". I think this design is simply a carry forward on the Blackjack classic pattern scaled down and probably un-necessary for me.

I'm pretty sure that's a EESE 6, just the photo isn't showing all of the blade or handle :).
 
One knife I do find the finger choil useful and unobtrusive is the tops BOB. Gives you a place to securely choke up a lil without sacrificing the cutting edge.

8pRVec2.jpg

MkqKhm4.jpg

If you think that's a finger choil, then we really can't have a proper discussion about this...

You have a ricasso, and a small guard. Why are you putting your finger there?!
 
I understand that you can have one or the other, but compromising a good design rarely accomplishes either. If someone wants a compromised design, that's cool, I'm sure they have their reasons. I still don't understand a 5 inch blade with a ricasso/choil combination that leaves a 3 inch cutting edge. Can you not be precise enough with choking up with a pinch grip on a 5 inch blade?

Do people really need super fine whittling ability with a 10-12 inch long, super thick utility knife? I can get pretty precise with all of my knives with a less than 5 inch blade with no choil. I don't foresee ever needed to carve my initials in a tree with a battle mistress. I'd be more inclined to cut the tree down with it.

I still can't wrap my mind around it other than a maker that someone likes does it and the buyer comes up with the justification, however irrational. If someone simply likes the look of it and don't mind the hassles it causes and finds it to useful in one or two scenarios while compromising 5 more, then to each his own. I guess it's just a YMMV type of thing. One man's trash us another man's treasure?

A finger choil makes no sense on a 10-12 inch blade.

You will never get close enough to the tip with your index finger to do anything useful...a knife like that is a chopper.

The only thing I can add at this point, is you need to get a fixed or folder with a 4 to 5 inch blade and a proper finger choil, and try it....
That's the only way that I have ever really been able to understand things....looking at it never worked well.....
 
If you think that's a finger choil, then we really can't have a proper discussion about this...

You have a ricasso, and a small guard. Why are you putting your finger there?!

I believe the tiny detent is the choil and the larger steel in front of the handle is a ricasso. Terminology is tough. So, that is certainly not a finger choil.

A finger choil makes no sense on a 10-12 inch blade.
I agree. The only reason one would exist is that is the typical design pattern a particular knife maker uses.
 
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