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Choils, when do they make sense?
- Thread starter bodog
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It's not a traditional choil that's found on the blade, however it was designed to be used that way according to one of the guys involved in its design and works quite well...do a lil research before spouting off like a know it all.
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Bobby, what do you think the design rationale for a ricasso is?
I knew we would get into definitions. Probably should have started the thread with such.
I knew we would get into definitions. Probably should have started the thread with such.
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You're missing the point as usual....
If you use google images, you will find different terminology for everything...I just did that to check your "sketch"
Regardless of that wonderful diagram, it does not change the purpose of where you should and shouldn't put your index finger, and what the purpose of that area is.....
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No buddy, you're missing the point...
A ricasso is not a sharpening notch as you imply.
Remember when you called tip-up tip-down???
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Total baloney. A finger choil makes great sense on a 10 - 12 inch blade. Because, when you choke up, you aren't working with the tip. You're working with the portion of the blade just in front of where your index finger is. It has absolutely nothing to do with tip control, or usage.
Have you ever taken a knife like that out and used it? I guarantee you the amount of leverage and control you gain over the 2 - 3 inches just in front of your index finger by choking up is noticeable. It definitely enables you to do "small knife tasks" with a big knife.
What 10 - 12 inch knives (with a finger choil) have you used long enough to for you to form a negative opinion of the choil? Just curious.
I do agree with you on your last point. Pictures don't get the point across. You have to TRY it to know what's up. To know if it works or not.
So, have you?
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Oh boy... I guess I missed where he said that. Tip up and tip down are quite different, and quite definitive... Lol
Duane Sanders
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I would honestly need to hold and use them knives before I could give an opinion. Going by the pictures the top one looks useless. The one with the sharpening choil I could live with. The next two are just thrown into the knifes design just so it can claim a feature. The choil does not line up with the rest of the handle for a good or comfortable grip. I would pass on them blades no matter who makes them or how premium the materials are. The one on the bottom looks more useful but the blade looks like it's designed to do heavy work, the tip looks to be designed to be extremely tough. Fine work could be done with it but will not be as easy as a thinner blade could do. It also looks tough enough that it might do some pry work. I've seen the choil on thick blades break at the choil when used like that. So unless the last one is nice and thin I would pass on it too.
I have two knives with a finger choil and both are designed to be functional and aren't there for looks. The first one is a Spyderco slip joint I got as a gift a couple years ago. It has a very short thin blade and slices real good. The choil actually locks the blade in from closing on you and gets you more grip and control on it. However when I do carry it (use it as my gentlemans blade) and end up using it I find the huge hole in the blade makes for a great purchase with the pinch grip. If I need to dig in with it I use the choil. Neat little knife. Would be nice if it were larger.
My other one is my buck reaper and it's a light weight thin blade and it is a super knife for whacking down brush and small limbs in the woods, like last weekend when I was trimming back my shooting lanes. It also chops above its weight class. The overall geometry really bites in and the steel holds a shaving edge for a long time when I trim and chop with it.
I agree that some are pointless if designed wrong but when it's designed to be a functional feature they work great. Just as important to me on my large finger choil blade is the thumb ramp. It locks the thumb in with the jimping and gives even more control. Without the thumb ramp it would be a bit tougher to remove dense material with less thumb support. Once again though, it was designed with a choil as a functional feature, not just for looks.
To touch back on blade thickness. I, in my opinion think a finger choil on anything thicker than 3/16" is pointless. Just my opinion.
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I might use the ricasso on a 10-12" blade. The definitions get a bit fussy really and they vary as to where you look things up.
This link I believe shows correct terminology. https://lansky.com/index.php/blog/anatomy-knife-fixed-blade-knives-part-1-blade/#.Vgcyn0tSTUU
This link I believe shows correct terminology. https://lansky.com/index.php/blog/anatomy-knife-fixed-blade-knives-part-1-blade/#.Vgcyn0tSTUU
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I've always refered to and seen referred to the unsharpened portion of the blade between hilt and edge the ricasso
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I believe that is correct. I just added a link to my last post with a diagram.
But one of the purposes of that unsharpened portion of the blade in front of the handle is a choking up hold on the knife that is still safe. It also serves as a stop for the sharpened edge.
But one of the purposes of that unsharpened portion of the blade in front of the handle is a choking up hold on the knife that is still safe. It also serves as a stop for the sharpened edge.
I understand the ricasso to be the area of the knife ahead of the handle, and before the sharpened edge. Sometimes the "finger choil" or is put there, which I believe is what creates the confusion. And if I recall correctly, the choil is the name for the very "handle-most" portion of the heel of the blade, regardless of if it has a notch or not.
Here are some semi-recent threads on the subject. Including the member here that made the image that was used above and his thoughts about it.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...What-exactly-is-a-knife-choil?highlight=choil
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...What-exactly-is-a-knife-choil?highlight=choil
Now, for the purpose of a ricasso... I'm not quite sure. I DO know that it is the most common place for a blade marking though.
In fact, I know that the reason that Most Beckers are saber ground is because they needed a place to stamp the blades. I know that is ALSO one of the reasons they implemented laser engraving a few years back, which is why the BK16 is a FFG instead of a saber grind. The two kabar manufactured Becker knives that existed as FFG's BEFORE laser engraving was started, were the BK5 and BK15. Both feature a ricasso with the stamp on it, and both feature "finger choils" in that ricasso.
Also, while I've said I dislike finger choils, I am also fairly against large ricassos, for the same reasons. The difference is that ricassos don't really encourage your finger to be close to the blade (although many use it like a "finger choil" anyway). So I guess in that sense a finger choil on a ricasso may be preferred to a plain old ricasso.
Here are some semi-recent threads on the subject. Including the member here that made the image that was used above and his thoughts about it.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...What-exactly-is-a-knife-choil?highlight=choil
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...What-exactly-is-a-knife-choil?highlight=choil
Now, for the purpose of a ricasso... I'm not quite sure. I DO know that it is the most common place for a blade marking though.
In fact, I know that the reason that Most Beckers are saber ground is because they needed a place to stamp the blades. I know that is ALSO one of the reasons they implemented laser engraving a few years back, which is why the BK16 is a FFG instead of a saber grind. The two kabar manufactured Becker knives that existed as FFG's BEFORE laser engraving was started, were the BK5 and BK15. Both feature a ricasso with the stamp on it, and both feature "finger choils" in that ricasso.
Also, while I've said I dislike finger choils, I am also fairly against large ricassos, for the same reasons. The difference is that ricassos don't really encourage your finger to be close to the blade (although many use it like a "finger choil" anyway). So I guess in that sense a finger choil on a ricasso may be preferred to a plain old ricasso.
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The BOB actually has a rounded area incorporated into the top side of the finger guard that actually contours to the shape of your finger quite well and works great to choke up on. My point was I'd rather have something like that on a knife rather than an sacrificing cutting edge with a traditional choil.
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Ya buddy, I remember when you called tip down tip up.....
What you don't realize about that thread was the pics originally posted by the OP where of a custom Laconia with tip down, it was then changed to a link to the collab. knife.
My comment was based on the original pics posted, I did not know that was not the collab.
Again, if you want to believe that the ricasso, and the little notch behind it is a finger choil, so you should put your finger there, then be my guest.
Maybe reading the thread would help you understand that what bodog is questioning is the need to have a finger choil vs losing cutting edge.
Terminology is critical, but since nobody in this thread has got that down, let's just try to stick to common sense....
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That is pretty much the choil-ricasso vs none or nearly none on a fixed blade. Folders are a bit different; Choils make more sense on them.
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Agreed. Unless it's a short fixed blade...4 inches...
I can see the terminology in this thread is a mess, and I haven't exactlt helped that.
Where we are all going wrong is calling the "choil" a "finger choil"......
A "finger choil" has always meant one thing to me, and that's all I have based my opinions on....
There is no good reason to put your finger near the blade of a knife unless is has an area specifically "cut out" to do that, and one that is actually designed to fit a finger safely.
The point to it is control for more precise cutting with the tip/edge and it works great when executed properly.
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Haha, regarding tip up/down; your own reading error is now my own? Interesting...
To clarify, a choil can be part of the ricasso, wether it be a sharpening choil or a finger choil. The only person having a hard time with terminology is yourself.
There is no need for me to re-read the thread, I've already read it. While doing so, I noticed you were having a hard time with terminology, so I decided to help you out with a 1st-grade style diagram. That's when your feelings got hurt, and now we're here arguing and taking up valuable space in this wonderful thread
I won't make the mistake of clicking on this thread again, so I'll leave you alone in here to argue about pointless things. Don't bother quoting/replying to me, I don't have the patience to read your childish nonsense
