Choosing a survival knife

[Micro-Bevel]

I think you make some good points...though it is worth considering that the frontiersmen who actually were out there actually surviving in the scenario you pose did it without any of the high-performance metals or handle materials you are a fan of.

Something to think about.

Another consideration is where one is surviving. Not everyone "survives" in the context you propose. Your Busse would be darn near worthless for someone surviving, say, in Lappland or in tropical rain forest.

They did survive with out the high end stuff, but dont you agree it would have been easier for them if they had access to the things we have nowadays?

 

[marcinek]

They did survive with out the high end stuff, but dont you agree it would have been easier for them if they had access to the things we have nowadays?

It no doubt would have been easier if they lived in condos a short drive from a WalMart too!

But it seems like they got by nonetheless.

 

[BlackHills]

That was a pretty well written post, although I think there's more opinion in it than there is fact. My choice wouldn't meet any of your 5 requirements. Different strokes for different folks.

 

[hoopster]

F&F = Fit and Finish, i can see your point, but for comparison an ESEE junglas, to be released shortly, will run for $168~ a busse BWM is $387~ same blade length, same thickness. same handle material. the only differences are the grind, steel and blade shape. now is the BWM bad? not at all. but really $219 more for INFI? i personally dont see it. and i dont think battoning through steel pipe proves anything.

IMO for the extra $200+ you get a few things.
1. A more sculpted handle (all three dimensions, not just two)
2. Better steel (better edge holding, better chip resistance and better corrosion resistance).
3. A choil which I think is a plus on this blade length.
4. Better resale value. The BWM will most likely go up in value mostly because the supply will diminish. The Junglas will probably stay the same, or go down with use.
5. Better grind. This may be personal preference but I've found a full convex grind works better for me than FFG, especially when batoning to split wood.

That's not to say all ESEE's aren't great knives, they definitely are but you still do get what you pay for in many cases. If Cviz gets both I sure hope he does a comparison. I hope Horndog does also. It should be interesting.

 

[PayetteRucker]

Alot of blanket statements in there, such as full tang automatically being stronger than other styles, are false blanket statements. I know of a certain popular brand *caugh spyderco caugh* that produced a complete run of faulty bushcraft knifes with full tang handles that are prone to breaking. Scandinavian style puukos have been the bread and butter of northern societies for more than 1500 years and they don't use full tangs. The vikings were considered one of the most skilled bushcrafting societies in the world, working HARD cold hardwoods, and their principle knife design was not full tang. simple high carbon steel, whether it be 1050-1095, A2, 01, Carbon V, etc, when heat treated right, will outperform most fancy dancy stainless steels because of the lack of copious ammounts of chromium added to the steel. Chromium tends to cause steel to be brittle, so the working edge microchips, which fast creates an unuseable edge that is incredibly hard to repair in the field. Yes, there are very capable "survival" stainless blades out there, however a vast majority of them are not as durable or easy to maintain as a simple quality high carbon blade. Hardwoods and animal bone, tooth, antler and wrapped cloth seemed to do fine as "high performance" handle materials for the 10,000 years or so humans have been using knives before Micarta, G10 and carbon fiber came around. I've had carbon fiber melt into runny black goo just from sitting in a car on a warm day. It may be high performance but for many applications it's definately not ideal. Like ANYTHING, a knife must be maintained. Maintenance doesn't have to be extravagant, take alot of time, research or equipment. Whether it is the highest quality stainless steel or wraught iron, a knife must be maintained. The edge, handle materials, etc. must be looked after periodically post normal use. A quality high carbon blade, if dried before putting into storage, will stay rust free. I have been using high carbon blades for everything from dive knives on the beaches of Florida to digging tools in the salty soil of texas and they have never once shown a speck of rust, just by taking the half a second to run the blade across a towel before putting it away at night. All the misconceptions the general knife using populous have against high carbon steel really infuriates me. I live in Idaho, an outdoorsman's mecca. We have more public land per capita than any other state other than alaska, literally millions of square miles stretching across endless mountains, 7500 foot deep canyons, and expansive high altitude deserts. I have spent the last year jobless hitting the backcountry with 1075, 1095, 15n20 and other high carbon blades used as my primary survival knife. It's safe to say I put in more than 10 miles of backpacking on average per day. Often the same knife I wear on my pack is the same knife I use to slice up salty, oily, watery steaks at the end of the day to throw on the grill, they get rinsed under a faucet, whiped off and placed in their sheaths. I have NEVER had an issue with rust on any of these steels (many of which have no finish coating). I'd take a quality 1055 high carbon survival blade over a S30V stainless survival blade any day. Using ONTARIO to judge high carbon steel in general is just laughable. I've gone through maybe 10 SERE knives, none of which came sharp or well-ground from the factory. After two hours of reprofiling the blade, it can become a capable knife, but the poor heat treat and finish quality in general makes this particular knife just about the worst face that 1095 has in today's cutlery market. Just something to keep in mind, showing the other side of the story.

 

[gundude73]

IMO for the extra $200+ you get a few things.
1. A more sculpted handle (all three dimensions, not just two)
2. Better steel (better edge holding, better chip resistance and better corrosion resistance).
3. A choil which I think is a plus on this blade length.
4. Better resale value. The BWM will most likely go up in value mostly because the supply will diminish. The Junglas will probably stay the same, or go down with use.
5. Better grind. This may be personal preference but I've found a full convex grind works better for me than FFG, especially when batoning to split wood.

That's not to say all ESEE's aren't great knives, they definitely are but you still do get what you pay for in many cases. If Cviz gets both I sure hope he does a comparison. I hope Horndog does also. It should be interesting.

i share your interest in how they will perform side by side. i also agree that the BWM will go up in price. through out my posts i suppose i was playing devils advocate. i like ESEE's and busse's. but for a knifenut to say "get the most expensive knife, it will perform the best" most of us here dont mind dropping that kind of coin on a knife if it is worth it. now some average joe looking for a survival blade probably just wants something that performs for the least amount of money, but has quality. i also agree that location dictates what your tool should be and it is more than just the tool, it is how you use it.

 

[marcinek]

It certainly was an "ambitious post" as someone one earlier!

Micro-Bevel, you said

CPM-S30V (Most so called knife experts say to stay away from stainless steels, but this modern stuff is really a different ball game, my S30V Benchamde Rukus [610] hugely out-performed my Ontario pilot survival knife [1095 CARBON steel])

What does that mean? Did the Ruckus and the Pilot knife have the same geometry? I have on Opinel that outslices any knife I own. I don't think that means its metal outperforms all other metals.

It just means it has a geometry suited for slicing.

And "out-performed" in what characteristic? Strength, toughness, hardness, edge holding, rust-resistance, etc?

 

[marcinek]

A Busse FFFBM died in that test. That was no cheap test.

Sounds a waste of a perfectly good knife!

 

[cziv]

Not everyone "survives" in the context you propose. Your Busse would be darn near worthless for someone surviving, say, in Lappland or in tropical rain forest.

Worthless for surviving? The Junglas is built from the company that touts their background in tropical climate survival, with knives built with this in mind (I guess here).

Both Busse & Esee have coated steel blades. Why, for instance, would a Junglas be more suitable for survival in a tropical rain forest than a BWM?

 

[marcinek]

Worthless for surviving? The Junglas is built from the company that touts their background in tropical climate survival, with knives built with this in mind (I guess here).

Both Busse & Esee have coated steel blades. Why, for instance, would a Junglas be more suitable for survival in a tropical rain forest than a BWM?

I don't think either would be more suitable for survival in a tropical rain forest than a Tram machete.

And I think that same Tram machete wouldn't be as suitable for survival in Lappland as a Strömeng leuku.

And that Strömeng wouldn't be as suitable for survival in zombie-overrun Manahattan as a Busse AK47.

 

[PayetteRucker]

because the ad says so... nah, to be perfectly honest in the price range you are squabbling about there's not much to debate. As long as the user holds up their end, both knives are gonna perform. They're like hot strippers with good work ethics-if you shell out the cash, both are going to put out.

 

[Micro-Bevel]

Alot of blanket statements in there, such as full tang automatically being stronger than other styles, are false blanket statements. I know of a certain popular brand *caugh spyderco caugh* that produced a complete run of faulty bushcraft knifes with full tang handles that are prone to breaking. Scandinavian style puukos have been the bread and butter of northern societies for more than 1500 years and they don't use full tangs. The vikings were considered one of the most skilled bushcrafting societies in the world, working HARD cold hardwoods, and their principle knife design was not full tang. simple high carbon steel, whether it be 1050-1095, A2, 01, Carbon V, etc, when heat treated right, will outperform most fancy dancy stainless steels because of the lack of copious ammounts of chromium added to the steel. Chromium tends to cause steel to be brittle, so the working edge microchips, which fast creates an unuseable edge that is incredibly hard to repair in the field. Yes, there are very capable "survival" stainless blades out there, however a vast majority of them are not as durable or easy to maintain as a simple quality high carbon blade. Hardwoods and animal bone, tooth, antler and wrapped cloth seemed to do fine as "high performance" handle materials for the 10,000 years or so humans have been using knives before Micarta, G10 and carbon fiber came around. I've had carbon fiber melt into runny black goo just from sitting in a car on a warm day. It may be high performance but for many applications it's definately not ideal. Like ANYTHING, a knife must be maintained. Maintenance doesn't have to be extravagant, take alot of time, research or equipment. Whether it is the highest quality stainless steel or wraught iron, a knife must be maintained. The edge, handle materials, etc. must be looked after periodically post normal use. A quality high carbon blade, if dried before putting into storage, will stay rust free. I have been using high carbon blades for everything from dive knives on the beaches of Florida to digging tools in the salty soil of texas and they have never once shown a speck of rust, just by taking the half a second to run the blade across a towel before putting it away at night. All the misconceptions the general knife using populous have against high carbon steel really infuriates me. I live in Idaho, an outdoorsman's mecca. We have more public land per capita than any other state other than alaska, literally millions of square miles stretching across endless mountains, 7500 foot deep canyons, and expansive high altitude deserts. I have spent the last year jobless hitting the backcountry with 1075, 1095, 15n20 and other high carbon blades used as my primary survival knife. It's safe to say I put in more than 10 miles of backpacking on average per day. Often the same knife I wear on my pack is the same knife I use to slice up salty, oily, watery steaks at the end of the day to throw on the grill, they get rinsed under a faucet, whiped off and placed in their sheaths. I have NEVER had an issue with rust on any of these steels (many of which have no finish coating). I'd take a quality 1055 high carbon survival blade over a S30V stainless survival blade any day. Using ONTARIO to judge high carbon steel in general is just laughable. I've gone through maybe 10 SERE knives, none of which came sharp or well-ground from the factory. After two hours of reprofiling the blade, it can become a capable knife, but the poor heat treat and finish quality in general makes this particular knife just about the worst face that 1095 has in today's cutlery market. Just something to keep in mind, showing the other side of the story.

Hmm, here I thought people liked Ontario.

Well, I used it to judge because it was the only 1095 I had available.

I DONT know how well OTHER 1095 compares to S30V (To be specific, BENCHMADE's S30V).

But it would be great if you know, maybe you could do a comparison review?

 

[Micro-Bevel]

It certainly was an "ambitious post" as someone one earlier!

Micro-Bevel, you said



What does that mean? Did the Ruckus and the Pilot knife have the same geometry? I have on Opinel that outslices any knife I own. I don't think that means its metal outperforms all other metals.

It just means it has a geometry suited for slicing.

And "out-performed" in what characteristic? Strength, toughness, hardness, edge holding, rust-resistance, etc?

I thinned the edge down on the Ontario to where it was ALMOST to the same geo as the Benchmade (but not exactly). Both were finished with the same hone (LANSKY blue crock-stick mini-dog bone [FINE]).

Then I did testing. The S30V had the edge (pun intended) in corrosion resistance.

In EDGE retention cutting cardboard, and before that paracord, the S30V went longer without needing to be sharpened.

In toughness the 1095 did much better (MAYBE due to the slightly more obtuse edge). I used both knives to chop some dried out hard-wood out by Lake Mead.

So, the S30V won, 2-1.

 

[marcinek]

Hmm, here I thought people liked Ontario.

Some do, some don't.

 

[marcinek]

I thinned the edge down on the Ontario to where it was ALMOST to the same geo as the Benchmade (but not exactly). Both were finished with the same hone (LANSKY blue crock-stick mini-dog bone [FINE]).

Then I did testing. The S30V had the edge (pun intended) in corrosion resistance.

In EDGE retention cutting cardboard, and before that paracord, the S30V went longer without needing to be sharpened.

In toughness the 1095 did much better (MAYBE due to the slightly more obtuse edge). I used both knives to chop some dried out hard-wood out by Lake Mead.

So, the S30V won, 2-1.

Interesting! So, for you, corrosion resistance and edge retention are more important than toughness in a "survival" knife?

I guess that explains why you like the new "super" steels so much!

 

[PayetteRucker]

Hmm, here I thought people liked Ontario.

Well, I used it to judge because it was the only 1095 I had available.

I DONT know how well OTHER 1095 compares to S30V (To be specific, BENCHMADE's S30V).

But it would be great if you know, maybe you could do a comparison review?

They are two completely different steels-they sharpen and wear completely differently. But when you're in the middle of who the heck knows where it's alot easier to sharpen RC58 1095 with a small arkansas stone and a pinky sized swatch of Wet and Dry than it is to sharpen S30V. As I said Stainless steels, particularly hard ones, tend to be brittle causing the edge to microchip during extensive woodworking/rough use. It's also a heck of alot easier to damage the tip. You aren't going to find blade shape and edge geometry that compare with the Benchmade in 1095, at least not from a factory. A Kabar, RAT, Condor or any number of production companies using quality high carbon steel will give you a real example of what it is capable of. Heck, even Benchmade does-they have a combat utility knife called the CSK2 that runs around 60 bucks street price, it comes in 1095. Cold Steel's Carbon V is also a very capable high carbon steel although from the factory I don't like their edge profiles at all. You can buy a 10 dollar GI Tanto and with a few hours reprofiling have yourself a fine survival knife.

 

[PayetteRucker]

I thinned the edge down on the Ontario to where it was ALMOST to the same geo as the Benchmade (but not exactly). Both were finished with the same hone (LANSKY blue crock-stick mini-dog bone [FINE]).

Then I did testing. The S30V had the edge (pun intended) in corrosion resistance.

In EDGE retention cutting cardboard, and before that paracord, the S30V went longer without needing to be sharpened.

In toughness the 1095 did much better (MAYBE due to the slightly more obtuse edge). I used both knives to chop some dried out hard-wood out by Lake Mead.

So, the S30V won, 2-1.

When doing some REAL cutting, IE woodcraft with hardwoods like hickory, beech, oak etc, you will find S30V's edge retention won't hold a candle. When in a survival situation will you be doing extensive cutting of cardboard? I can do that with a 2.99 walmart utility knife.

 

[cziv]

So I'm hearing different knives for different climates/situation?

OR

Slightly softer steels are better for survival knives?

I'm assuming that 1095, 440C, Carbon V are softer than S30V for instance or am I off base there?

 

[marcinek]

But when you're in the middle of who the heck knows where it's alot easier to sharpen RC58 1095 with a small arkansas stone and a pinky sized swatch of Wet and Dry than it is to sharpen S30V.

Thats an excellent point Payette.

In a "survival" situation, to me, edge retention and corrosion resistance don't bring much to the party. A dull edge and rust I can deal with.

I knife that cannot withstand shock and deformation...that I don't want to deal with with my life on the line.

 

[marcinek]

So I'm hearing different knives for different climates/situation?

I think so. Seems to be if you don't have the ideal knife for a scenario you are woefully unprepared.

And it seems the best knife for a particular setting is the design that the people there have been using to survive for generations.

But that's just my opinion.